Following the 4th Density Harvest, what will we perceive?

[unity100]

then why would hidden hand be any different ?

Simply because the subject matter of Hidden Hand is far more aligned with this forum (in terms of spiritual context) than discussing the barbaric belief systems of other cultures that humanity now considers outdated.

'humanity' being ? many people who live on the western, north and eastern parts of this planet ? so, more than one people considering something makes them outdated, and unacceptable.

curiously there are still people who not only believe in, but also practice barbaric belief system of south american religions in south america. police in peru is looking into various cases of human sacrifice for example.

in retrospect, majority of humanity also would consider what is being relayed in Ra material as nonsense, wrong, unacceptable, and lie.

I would guess it is only because you do not agree with the HH message that you feel none of it should exist here. I happen to strongly dislike the HH message, too. I think it's recycled and obfuscated, but I still strongly believe it is a valid Truth to the many who have had different life experiences than me, or those who are on a spiritual path that resonates at the exact level of "Truth" shared in the words of the HH message.

i didnt say that 'hidden hand message' should not exist here. leaving aside that it is not a message, there is a forum for discussing such non-Law of One material in the form of olio. it is therefore, apparently alright to discuss stuff.

that doesnt mean that we are supposed to accept them as valid, and not call out wrongness of whats wrong and explain and express those.

something resonating with someone else does not make it truth.

Unity, not sure why you just went into that whole justification about the wrongs of accepting denser actions. No one is arguing that the barbaric ways of the past should be accepted as one's Truth.

excuse me but there is no 'past' in this. if this planet was negatively polarizing, what you say 'past barbaric actions' would be the order of the day and the dominant tool of polarization.

the very fact that you are rejecting the barbaric actions you mention with your conscious mind is another pointer that explains and exemplifies the process of rejection of incompatible behavior in the quote i have pasted - that this planet is polarizing positively, even if in subconscious, and those barbaric actions are no longer acceptable at this point of polarization.

The point I feel you are missing is that these Truths may be what OTHERS still need at this time as they awaken to their true Self. You don't need to explain/justify this, as I believe we are already on the same page. :-) It is only because you brought up barbaric cultures as an extreme example to make a point, that we are even discussing them still. But we discussed them only to recognize them as a Truth of our past, which has since helped humanity evolve into the "now", where such dense manifestations are no longer necessary for most of us.

others needing something does not make all others responsible with accepting, validating what others need. that is being expected here.

if, 'hidden hand' is others' truth, it is not truth in the perspective of the material we are discussing. that is, if we are not supposed to polarize negatively here, if im not mistaken.

we are examining and studying the Law of One from positive angle. this includes not accepting sts behavior.

That does not mean we have the right to judge those cultures, though!

of course it does. you just judged them. you called their practices as barbaric and outdated, and rejected even discussing them.

you have used your judgment, in order to discern a negative behavior set that is incompatible with your chosen path. that is how it is supposed to be. there are endless iterations of judge, judgment, using judgment in the material we are discussing.

The bottom line is, through his internet ecapades tauting claims to gnosis and esoterica, anybody who happened upon the material more than likely got pointed in the RIGHT direction, towards the Ra material.

bottom line is, he is sending people in the RIGHT direction with WRONG assumptions, like how people are made believe that malice is in fact not malice, or how sts is not actually sts.

the approach here seems to be 'any advertisement is good advertisement'. that is incorrect. if it was, ra would answer affirmative to don when he had asked about the possibility of doing 'advertising' through ufo displays in order to draw attention to the material.

I find it very funny that you assume I am somehow being "led astray".

i spoke in general. and, i dont even need to show detailed examples. we are having people who are believing that malice is not malice at all (whereas in fact the very path that uses it to polarize needs malice to be what it is to be able to polarize), and at a point in the past we even had people who argued that service to others was not actually service to others or sts was not service to self in the meanings we were told them to be.

if that's not being led astray, then one wonders what is.

[3DMonkey]

Discernment.

Discerning the HH info is easy enough. Discerning barbaric historical info is easy enough.

Discerning hypothetical results is.... (fill in your own words).

[AnthroHeart]

You're funny 3D. Were you being facetious?

[Bring4th_Steve]

Quote:That does not mean we have the right to judge those cultures, though!

of course it does. you just judged them. you called their practices as
barbaric and outdated, and rejected even discussing them.



you have used your judgment, in order to discern a negative behavior set
that is incompatible with your chosen path. that is how it is supposed
to be. there are endless iterations of judge, judgment, using judgment
in the material we are discussing.

Unity, you can nitpick if you want, but it is making it more difficult for me to respond without putting a tremendous amount of energy into arguments that have veered from their original intentions.

Yes, I "characterized" their practices as barbaric, because you called it that. I stated they are outdated, because the Aztecs have been declared extinct since August 1521. And please do not twist my points. I did not reject discussing them. I stated that the practices of these cultures are not aligned with the purpose of this forum. I did not personally judge these cultures to be worthy or not of discussion.

Quote:The point I feel you are missing is that
these Truths may be what OTHERS still need at this time as they awaken
to their true Self. You don't need to explain/justify this, as I believe
we are already on the same page. :-) It is only because you brought up
barbaric cultures as an extreme example to make a point, that we are
even discussing them still. But we discussed them only to recognize them
as a Truth of our past, which has since helped humanity evolve into the
"now", where such dense manifestations are no longer necessary for most
of us.

others needing something does not make all others responsible with
accepting, validating what others need. that is being expected here.



if, 'hidden hand' is others' truth, it is not truth in the perspective
of the material we are discussing. that is, if we are not supposed to
polarize negatively here, if im not mistaken.



we are examining and studying the Law of One from positive angle. this includes not accepting sts behavior.

HH was brought up as an example by Godwide_void to question why information "like" HH can't be seen for what it is--catalyst to help someone move along their spiritual path. But that particular example (as hotly contested as it has become here at Bring4th) was suddenly opened up by a number of us and evaluated once again. Your point that HH is not a truth against the LOO material is true. But this was never the argument. No one was trying to validate HH against the LOO, which is why there is no further reason to continue this part of the conversation.

Quote:Unity, not sure why you just went into
that whole justification about the wrongs of accepting denser actions.
No one is arguing that the barbaric ways of the past should be accepted
as one's Truth.

excuse me but there is no 'past' in this. if this planet was negatively
polarizing, what you say 'past barbaric actions' would be the order of
the day and the dominant tool of polarization.



the very fact that you are rejecting the barbaric actions you mention
with your conscious mind is another pointer that explains and
exemplifies the process of rejection of incompatible behavior in the
quote i have pasted - that this planet is polarizing positively, even if
in subconscious, and those barbaric actions are no longer acceptable at
this point of polarization.

There is no "past" in the Aztecs barbaric ways? Or the rule of Nazism, which from "today's" measure died when the four international powers occupied and split up Germany into four pieces? How is that not considered the past by humanity? Sure, fringe aspects of society may carry on the ideologies of these cultures, but we are hardly living in those times now by any pop culture perspective.

yes, I am rejecting the barbaric actions since I am trying to polarize towards the light. Yes, this means I am aligned with your quote, but my question was not about the validity of your quote. It was asking you why you felt you had to make this justification when no one was arguing against it in the first place. If you go back and read the thread, you will not find us talking about accepting the negative attributes of humanity as part of our positively-oriented paths. We simply pointing out that it is appropriate for everyone to find their own Truths within experiences that may be seen as STO or STS, as everything is born and leads back to the Creator. Therefore, every experience is perfect, and we are not doing ourselves any favors by judging how others perceive their Truths.

Quote:I would guess it is only because you do
not agree with the HH message that you feel none of it should exist
here. I happen to strongly dislike the HH message, too. I think it's
recycled and obfuscated, but I still strongly believe it is a valid
Truth to the many who have had different life experiences than me, or
those who are on a spiritual path that resonates at the exact level of
"Truth" shared in the words of the HH message.

i didnt say that 'hidden hand message' should not exist here. leaving
aside that it is not a message, there is a forum for discussing such
non-Law of One material in the form of olio. it is therefore, apparently
alright to discuss stuff.



that doesnt mean that we are supposed to accept them as valid, and call
out wrongness of whats wrong and explain and express those.



something resonating with someone else does not make it truth.

Unity, no one was ever asking YOU to accept anything as valid. Some of us were in agreement that in general, we cannot know 100% whether something is 100% Truth, or 100% lie. So logically, what I believe is 100% truth, may in fact be 100% lie. Why? Because we choose to believe in something, and therefore it becomes our personal Truth.

You make me nervous when you say "something resonating with someone else does not make it truth." Of COURSE it makes it a personal truth! Maybe not for YOU, maybe not for ME, but most definitely for that person who chooses to believe! It is our God-given right to exercise our will and to believe in whatever we want. For all intents and purposes, people live and die by those beliefs--their Truths. Who is to judge what is right and wrong for each person?

Quote: then why would hidden hand be any different ?

Simply because the subject matter of Hidden Hand is far more aligned
with this forum (in terms of spiritual context) than discussing the
barbaric belief systems of other cultures that humanity now considers
outdated.


'humanity' being ? many people who live on the western, north and
eastern parts of this planet ? so, more than one people considering
something makes them outdated, and unacceptable.



curiously there are still people who not only believe in, but also
practice barbaric belief system of south american religions in south
america. police in peru is looking into various cases of human sacrifice
for example.



in retrospect, majority of humanity also would consider what is being
relayed in Ra material as nonsense, wrong, unacceptable, and lie.

Good points-- all of them having nothing to do with the original question, which I felt was answered appropriately. Hidden Hand was used as an example for its STO/STS properties, and has a presence on this forum because of its spiritually contextualized information. We don't talk about scalping heads and killing the Jewish community on this forum for the same reasons we are not discussing automobile mechanical issues--it's not relevant.

Unity, I really don't want to belabor these points any further. Unless you feel I am articulating gross misconceptions, I'm not sure how much more utility there will be in splitting hairs further. I find I am defending myself more than enjoying an exchange of ideas, and that is where I personally bow out when writing on forums.

Thanks, brother.
Steve

[3DMonkey]

You're funny 3D. Were you being facetious?

I'm not sure. LOL

[unity100]

Quote:That does not mean we have the right to judge those cultures, though!

of course it does. you just judged them. you called their practices as
barbaric and outdated, and rejected even discussing them.

you have used your judgment, in order to discern a negative behavior set
that is incompatible with your chosen path. that is how it is supposed
to be. there are endless iterations of judge, judgment, using judgment
in the material we are discussing.

Unity, you can nitpick if you want, but it is making it more difficult for me to respond without putting a tremendous amount of energy into arguments that have veered from their original intentions.

Yes, I "characterized" their practices as barbaric, because you called it that. I stated they are outdated, because the Aztecs have been declared extinct since August 1521. And please do not twist my points. I did not reject discussing them. I stated that the practices of these cultures are not aligned with the purpose of this forum. I did not personally judge these cultures to be worthy or not of discussion.[/quote]

it doesnt differ if you reword it or phrase it beautifully. the act of judging stays as judging. you judged, through various reasons, that the negative polarization techniques which were used by aztecs, were not aligned with the purpose of this forum. despite nazis used the same techniques to polarize. that is judgment.

you may dub it as 'characterizing' or you may dub it with different wordage, but the act stays same.

HH was brought up as an example by Godwide_void to question why information "like" HH can't be seen for what it is--catalyst to help someone move along their spiritual path. But that particular example (as hotly contested as it has become here at Bring4th) was suddenly opened up by a number of us and evaluated once again. Your point that HH is not a truth against the LOO material is true. But this was never the argument. No one was trying to validate HH against the LOO, which is why there is no further reason to continue this part of the conversation.

youre mistaken. there was at least one person doing that validation. not against LOO, but through LOO. to the point of claiming malice to not be malice, and exonerating the 3d negative harvestees of various negative properties like sexual excesses, and malice.

There is no "past" in the Aztecs barbaric ways? Or the rule of Nazism, which from "today's" measure died when the four international powers occupied and split up Germany into four pieces? How is that not considered the past by humanity? Sure, fringe aspects of society may carry on the ideologies of these cultures, but we are hardly living in those times now by any pop culture perspective.

no, there is no 'past' in them. ritual human sacrifice was not only used by aztecs. if you remember, it was also used by nazis. and a noticeable number of them, who may be negatively harvestable, were still among us circa 1981, and they may still be around.

the barbaric ways you dub, is apparently one of the methods of negative polarization. it recurs in activities of many, from aztecs to genghis khan, to nazis.

distasteful as it may be, it seems this kind of thing is a method of polarization in the 'greater scheme' of things in this universe.

yes, I am rejecting the barbaric actions since I am trying to polarize towards the light. Yes, this means I am aligned with your quote, but my question was not about the validity of your quote. It was asking you why you felt you had to make this justification when no one was arguing against it in the first place. If you go back and read the thread, you will not find us talking about accepting the negative attributes of humanity as part of our positively-oriented paths. We simply pointing out that it is appropriate for everyone to find their own Truths within experiences that may be seen as STO or STS, as everything is born and leads back to the Creator. Therefore, every experience is perfect, and we are not doing ourselves any favors by judging how others perceive their Truths.

im at a loss to how easily people shape their opinion and arguments without paying attention to details, which are extremely important in this kind of topics, discussions, and actually delicate learning.

someone, as i mentioned above, has just attempted to exonerate negative path from malice, excess, extreme negative acts. to the point of redefining malice to be not itself even.

this was wrong. even if someone wanted to polarize in a negative path, this will still stay wrong. the person, in its subconscious desire to negative polarizely may want to redefine these to make it more acceptable to its conscious mind to overcome the difficulties that are posed by the outlook of today's cultural conditioning towards things like these. but even in that case, these will still remain wrong, and will keep remaining wrong - malice will be still malice, and 3d negative harvestees, as exampled, will keep engaging in extreme excesses to polarize.

the straightforward, and proper negative polarization method would be to accept these as they are and polarize as such in lieu of society's perspective and dropping all societal conditionings, like nazis did. just like in the mechanic in which the orion entities directly deliver negative philosophy when the entity they contact is negative, but deliver doomsday prophecies, warnings against future or positive looking negative philosophy when they come up against a positive individual. same mechanic.

in this case it doesnt even seem like the individual is actually wanting to polarize negatively however. so, hence the 'being led astray angle.

Unity, no one was ever asking YOU to accept anything as valid. Some of us were in agreement that in general, we cannot know 100% whether something is 100% Truth, or 100% lie. So logically, what I believe is 100% truth, may in fact be 100% lie. Why? Because we choose to believe in something, and therefore it becomes our personal Truth.

please next time make certain statements after being sure of what has transpired in a thread next time. there has been one individual who wanted what nonsense hh produced to be accepted as valid.

You make me nervous when you say "something resonating with someone else does not make it truth." Of COURSE it makes it a personal truth! Maybe not for YOU, maybe not for ME, but most definitely for that person who chooses to believe! It is our God-given right to exercise our will and to believe in whatever we want. For all intents and purposes, people live and die by those beliefs--their Truths. Who is to judge what is right and wrong for each person?

there is no point to either this forum, or Ra material, or discussing any of these if we dont have common truths on which this universe revolves on. everyone can just imagine their imaginary universe, and these can just be their 'truth'.

the real truth is, things do not work that way. someone believing that the negative 3d harvestees are not malignant entities that engage in excesses, but instead extremely balanced entities which are beyond acts that are malignant, harmful, excessive, or imbalanced, will NOT make that a truth.

the entity may keep believing it is so. encounter with such a negative entity and its excesses may prove otherwise. the entity may still keep believing that it is so, however.

..............

we are to judge what is right and wrong for us ourselves, and us as a collective. this is the reason why there is more than one person existing in 3rd density, and why there are societies, why there are collective thoughts and judgments that facilitate our progression. just like how the current society judges the acts of aztecs or nazis to be barbarous as of this point. its a judgment.

as undesirable as it may be to some people who prefer to believe that things be just like how they want them to be, it is not how universe works. otherwise, the below would be true :

you could polarize positively by enslaving, slaughtering, dominating others.

you cannot. it is not how the universe works. no amount of belief, thinking, personalization or abstraction will change that. for apparently this was how the universe was created to function by infinite intelligence, so all the stuff associated with it, positive and negative can be actually made possible.

if we are polarizing positively, that is wrong for us. it is a common truth. for those who are polarizing negatively, it is also wrong. for, they use it to polarize negatively. therefore, it is a common truth that you cannot polarize positively that way in our universe.

Good points-- all of them having nothing to do with the original question, which I felt was answered appropriately. Hidden Hand was used as an example for its STO/STS properties, and has a presence on this forum because of its spiritually contextualized information. We don't talk about scalping heads and killing the Jewish community on this forum for the same reasons we are not discussing automobile mechanical issues--it's not relevant.

i elaborated above.

Unity, I really don't want to belabor these points any further. Unless you feel I am articulating gross misconceptions, I'm not sure how much more utility there will be in splitting hairs further. I find I am defending myself more than enjoying an exchange of ideas, and that is where I personally bow out when writing on forums.

Thanks, brother.
Steve

in delicate heated controversial topics, there will be heat. its inevitable.

saying 'that is not correct' to someone who thinks that it is possible to polarize positively by employing what is used in negative polarization, or someone who is arguing that malice is not malice, or arguing that sto is not sto, is inevitably going to bring the associated heat.

other people joining in the discussion by missing important details as to what transpired in between others, and approaching in different angles, like what just happened here, may complicate the situation in addition.

...........


yes, i used judgment. i used judgment, and told that proposition brought by JustLikeYou, saying that the negative 3d harvestees would refrain from doing malicious acts, or engage in excesses, was wrong. after that, i had told that redefining malice to not be malice was also wrong. and, since it seems these misconceptions were manufactured by hidden hand, the discussion took a turn in that direction.

[zenmaster]

The whole point of his message seems to be a means of offering us a way to see how the STS path serves the One Creator.

Yes, but do the means justify the ends?

If an awakening person comes across the HH material and is catalyzed and fueled by it to seek further (whether seeking in STS or STO), how is that not perfection?

In my opinion, many of us seem to be shooting the messenger here. There will always be love-based and fear-based catalyst in 3D. It is the uniqueness and perhaps even the contradictory aspects of the HH message that might be the perfect combination of "WTF!?" and "Hmm, this curious fellow has some valid points!" that might awaken a handful of people in ways they would not have awakened had they never come across the material in the precise way they did.

Sure, many of us do not enjoy it. It's oddly STO for an STS-proclaimed chap. So? Who cares! It's still someone's Truth, no matter how distorted it has become in principle. Who are you [figuratively] to judge what another's Truth is? At the end of the day, would it even matter if this was someone's hair-brained idea conjured up while sitting on the toilet? What matters is how much the message--however portrayed--resonated with someone who needed to read such a message in that exact configuration, at that exact moment, for their own spiritual growth or further knowing of their Self. Therefore, it doesn't matter how much "truth" truly exists in the HH message. The point is that it catalyzed someone further for their own introspection and continued spiritual growth/regression.

Steve

You completely missed my point. I was simply saying it is unethical to lie. i.e. "it doesn't matter whether he is what he says he is or not"
You see, it does matter to me for my own purpose. I understand other people endorse lying, if it resonates with them. "It's OK to lie, if I like what is being said." But to me, that is wrong - do you understand?

[unity100]

............

You completely missed my point. I was simply saying it is unethical to lie. i.e. "it doesn't matter whether he is what he says he is or not"
You see, it does matter to me for my own purpose. I understand other people endorse lying, if it resonates with them. "It's OK to lie, if I like what is being said." But to me, that is wrong - do you understand?

well. you have just summarized what i have been explaining in pages long posts, in a simple form.

[3DMonkey]

It is a thought...

---

You are part of a thought.

Yes, apparently your thought.

Did I take thought today? Did I create you? Are you my squishy?

[native]

So are you the decider of all things "Truth"? And is not everything in Creation born of the light, which is 100% Love/Truth? It is only when Truth is portrayed in ways that serve others or spreads disinformation that we consider a Truth to be a lie. But a lie is still Truth, just heavily distorted.

Now, you are holding a distorted Truth in your hands. You are now going to expect everyone around you to see this distorted Truth and "know" that it is false? How can you expect everyone to believe the same things you believe, Icaro?

I'm not disagreeing with you that people can believe what they want, or to create their own truths. Leaving the argument aside of whether or not HH is true for some, and not for others.. If I were to openly say I'm going to fabricate my own believable story, pose as someone that I'm not, and sprinkle spiritual nuggets of information in along with it, is that something that we should advocate? Is that appropriate?

[AnthroHeart]

That's flippen awesome 3DMonkey dude. I call many of my characters squishy
along with many other sweet nothings. Definitely a strong character archetype
in my world. Here's another.

[unity100]

it seems, somewhere along the way, the word 'truth' has been redefined to mean the same as 'belief'.

and somewhere along the way, it has been a requirement for other spiritual seekers to acknowledge and validate others' beliefs by the leftover duplicate meaning of the word truth as in 'true'.

also, the recent propositions of 'creating one's own reality' in spiritual literature seems to have been taken to extremes to basically mean 'whatever i want to believe, becomes true'.

[zenmaster]

............

You completely missed my point. I was simply saying it is unethical to lie. i.e. "it doesn't matter whether he is what he says he is or not"
You see, it does matter to me for my own purpose. I understand other people endorse lying, if it resonates with them. "It's OK to lie, if I like what is being said." But to me, that is wrong - do you understand?

well. you have just summarized what i have been explaining in pages long posts, in a simple form.

It's like some inflated sense of moral relativism is the center of gravity which serves one's discretion. It reminds me of the man that recently discovered the value of the subjective nature of reality. To such a man, that periphery of consciousness now suggests the 'truth' from which all must be judged. Really, to suggest that a novelist 'not telling the truth' is morally equivalent to someone knowingly lying to serve a consequentialist agenda is beyond absurd.

[JustLikeYou]

Wow. It's hard to know where to begin.

Steve, godwide_void and 3D, your contributions seem generally well-balanced to me. This is appreciated. I have not finished the HH material, but I have read most of it and it all seems to cohere very nicely with the Ra material. I obviously don't expect that the next couple of years will play out the way HH suggested it will, but that is only a small piece of disagreement.

zenmaster, what do you mean by "unethical"? I can attempt to interpret you, but I shall choose instead to use the simplest definition I know: unethical is that which breaches a code of ethics. The question then becomes, whose code of ethics is breached by the act of lying? If it is only your code of ethics that is breached, then the word is strangely solipsistic since it includes only your worldview. I happen to know that it is perfectly ethical for an STS entity to lie. It's just that they use a different ethical system than you. For what it's worth, I have reason to believe that HH may not, in fact, be lying. My philosophical training has taught me that I learn much more when I attempt to interpret an author generously, giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming that the story makes sense, trusting that inconsistencies will reveal themselves as I go.

As truth seekers who value honesty, we shouldn't be supportive of misleading and dishonest approaches to the truth. In reality there are many who are imbalanced, and now as a consequence, believe this fantasy side story and it only leads them further from the truth, distorting their seeking.

Everyone you meet is a mirror (19.12 ), reflecting to you what you think, do and feel. If you judge the actions of some part of your experience as unacceptable, then you have already judged some part of your own actions as unacceptable. All is to be accepted. All is to be forgiven. All is to be loved. "In truth, there is no right and wrong" (1.6 ). If you see dishonesty in another, you are somehow dishonest. It is okay. It isn't wrong, just imbalanced (that is, if you are STO). Love the part of yourself which is dishonest. Accept it. Then move forward. Honesty will eventually come and the people who find themselves in your awareness will reflect this honesty back to you.



unity100, I hope I am not breaching your free will in saying this, but since I am the target of it, I will comment. I have noticed that you frequently underestimate your interlocutor both in her intelligence and in her familiarity with the LOO material. It may benefit you to consider the meaning of this trend.

With that out of the way, let me first state that shortly after I entered my last post, I reflected upon my own experience and decided that the word "malice" to be an appropriate word to describe an STS specific emotion. My only proviso is to reiterate that it must be understood to be an emotion whose source is not an imbalanced lower chakra. Rather, it must be understood to be pleasure at feasting upon the energy of another.

But we have to go back further than this word in order for the real thrust of my statement in this post to be made.

there is nothing not to understand about rasputin's love excesses and insatiable sexual apetite, nothing not to understand about genghis khan systematically mowing down people. they just did these.

Assumptions like these are foolhardy. The human mind is capable of great subtlety and powerful minds do not suffer cognitive dissonance. Rasputin and Genghis Khan had very good reasons for doing what they did. They knew how to increase their own power by draining the life out of others. Remember that in underestimating others, you also underestimate yourself: the mind contains all.

the entire sts path is comprised of imbalance of lower chakras with extreme activity in any way possible. overemphasis and enforcement of one's own red, orange and yellow is negative path.

The simplest and most robust response to this statement is to ask you to consider the Archetypes. A brief examination of these and Ra's statements about them will reveal to you that balance is an absolute necessity regardless of which path you choose.

In 93.24, Ra says: "We may indicate that the crux ansata is a part of the concept complexes of the archetypical mind, the circle indicating the magic of the spirit, the cross indicating that nature of manifestation which may only be valued by the losing. Thus the crux ansata is intended to be seen as an image of the eternal in and through manifestation and beyond manifestation through the sacrifice and the transformation of that which is manifest."

The cross appears in so many of the archetypes that it is not even worth naming them. Look up a tarot card and it probably has a cross of some kind in it. "That which may only be valued by losing" is a fairly accurate way of depicting the act of balancing. When you balance, you sacrifice some aspect of creation in order to experience another. Zenmaster brought up the quotation about fasting. This is an example of sacrifice. Do you not realize what STS sacrifices? Do you not realize how much willpower it takes to be powerful and not connect with human beings?

But I doubt this will satisfy you, so I will give you something more direct.

In 46.7 : "The negatively oriented mind/body/spirit complex will use this anger in a similarly conscious fashion, refusing to accept the undirected or random energy of anger and instead, through will and faith, funneling this energy into a practical means of venting the negative aspect of this emotion so as to obtain control over other-self, or otherwise control the situation causing anger."

It seems to me that "undirected or random energy" are the tell-tale signs of imbalance, here being rejected on the STS path.

In 49.5 , "The most important concept to grasp about the energy field is that the lower or negative pole will draw the universal energy into itself from the cosmos. Therefrom it will move upward to be met and reacted to by the positive spiraling energy moving downward from within. The measure of an entity’s level of ray activity is the locus wherein the south pole outer energy has been met by the inner spiraling positive energy.

As an entity grows more polarized this locus will move upwards. This phenomenon has been called by your peoples the kundalini. However, it may better be thought of as the meeting place of cosmic and inner, shall we say, vibratory understanding."

Ra clearly states here that polarizing will cause the kundalini to move upward. This means that the energy centers must absolutely be balanced or else the energy will spray outward rather than moving upward in a single column. Imagine an imbalanced top. How long will it stand straight up? Both polarities demand balance.

the entity can graduate as long as it can function as a sentient, self-conscious and aware entity and it fills emission or absorption requirements.

This is true, but balance is necessary in order to achieve this end. Otherwise the meeting point of your kundalini will never interact with the 4th chakra enough to either activate it or block and skip it.

sure. then tell us how would resonating with the 'truth' that 'there is no gravity' would change things for someone.

Resonance is literally the only way you will ever find truth. In other words, every story you hear which purports to be a true story must first filter through your own truth-detector before you are willing to agree that it is, in fact, truth. No piece of evidence will ever verify truth for you because proof is impossible in this illusion.

nomatter how much you resonate with whatever you can imagine or hear, the basic mechanisms and rules that were created to make this reality possible will keep acting as they were created to be.

Yes, they will remain what they are, which means that my truth detector will need precision in order to pick them up. And then my mind will need clarity in order to check them for coherence. If you can't trust yourself, unity, who can you trust?

if, you could 'resonate' and change these things, there would be no reality to speak of.

I'm beginning to think you do not define this term in the same way most people I meet define it. A debate over vocabulary is rarely worth the effort.

the persona you named hidden hand fails the first check, since it declares itself to be a 'sts entity'. service to self entails everything that is to the benefit of self, including lying and manufacturing things, regardless of its consequences to others.

Again, a Ra quotation (borrowed from zenmaster).

"11.18: Questioner: Then we have crusaders from Orion coming to this planet for mind control purposes. How do they do this?

Ra: I am Ra. As all, they follow the Law of One observing free will. Contact is made with those who call. Those then upon the planetary sphere act much as do you to disseminate the attitudes and philosophy of their particular understanding of the Law of One which is service to self. These become the elite. Through these, the attempt begins to create a condition whereby the remainder of the planetary entities are enslaved by their free will."

The key phrase is this: "enslaved by their free will". Hidden Hand openly acknowledges that the people on ATS are not capable of being swayed by the lies and manipulation which are the standard fare of STS. It is also worth mentioning that STS entities are well aware of the laws of karma. Thus, it is in their interests to make sure that the enslavement is freely chosen. You obviously cannot freely choose if the answers are not made available to you. Therefore, STS must make the answers available. In other words, they must occasionally tell as much of the truth as they reasonably can (in the right place, of course) so that a genuine attempt at freely chosen slavery is possible.

It is an unsafe assumption that because Hidden Hand is STS, his message is therefore a lie. Karmically, this would be highly perilous for a successful group of STS entities like the Ruling Bloodlines.

excuse me but there is no 'past' in this. if this planet was negatively polarizing, what you say 'past barbaric actions' would be the order of the day and the dominant tool of polarization.

I think you misunderstand HH. The notion that the planet is polarizing negatively seems to be the subject of much misunderstanding. What I understand HH to mean is that the overall polarity of the entire enslaved population must be below 50% STO, otherwise STS entities are not harvestable. If you consider that most of the population is stuck in the orange ray, the probability is high that our overall world-wide polarity is below 50% (since 51% STO is harvestable). Though Ra never mentions this stipulation, it does not contradict anything in the material as far as I know. So I see no problem with entertaining it as a possiblity.

this includes not accepting sts behavior.

All must be accepted and integrated. You don't have to act as STS entities do, but -- assuming you seek adepthood (and you may not) -- you must still learn to love them and discover that they are already just as perfect as you are.

you have used your judgment, in order to discern a negative behavior set that is incompatible with your chosen path. that is how it is supposed to be. there are endless iterations of judge, judgment, using judgment in the material we are discussing.

A distinction is necessary here. Judgement can be used in two ways: one of them is what you have just described. The other is what you have just described, plus moral condemnation. The first is very useful; the second is an act of repression.

bottom line is, he is sending people in the RIGHT direction with WRONG assumptions, like how people are made believe that malice is in fact not malice, or how sts is not actually sts.

I am not as feeble-minded as you think I am. My ideas are my own. I have been pondering the essence of STO vs. STS long before I discovered HH.

Again, unity, I do not expect to have swayed you mind. You will see what you want to see. You will choose which parts of my words resonate with you and which do not. And these will define what is true in my words. Everything I have spoken is truth in my world. My perception of this truth can change from time to time allowing me a greater degree of clarity, precision and coherence. Nevertheless, it is still a vision of truth. It may well be that you do not see this same vision. In fact, I know you won't. I simply offer you an opportunity to make use of my vision of truth to incorporate into your own, if you so desire -- if it 'resonates' with you.

Finally, I cannot find the quote, but I find it strangely revealing when you suggested that Hidden Hand is "just a person". Just a person? A person is everything. Do you really grasp how infinite and beautiful each human being is? How powerful? How capable of insight? And occasionally how greatly balanced? Every human being who walks into your life is a messenger from the heavens. Do you always shoot the messenger because she is "just a person"?

[zenmaster]

zenmaster, what do you mean by "unethical"?

How about exploitation of shadow at the direct expense of known truth in the matter depicted or at the expense of one's available honesty?
Do you not see that I am not dismissing a narrative that serves as some allegory to some which may seem insightful? I know that different people have different moral compasses. Do you not see that I could care less if someone can find value and intuitive resonation with themes in it? That is utterly irrelevant to the situation of one that falsely depicts actual occurrences for the purpose of motivating thought and action towards a desired end. Actually those justifications serving to support such behavior are also consequentialist. So you provide the moral support and encouragement thereby. The marriage of advertiser and buyer.

[3DMonkey]

Like Hollywood? Or fictional writing? Or fairy tales?

Having fun. We're all having fun playing the game.

[native]

Everyone you meet is a mirror (19.12 ), reflecting to you what you think, do and feel. If you judge the actions of some part of your experience as unacceptable, then you have already judged some part of your own actions as unacceptable. All is to be accepted. All is to be forgiven. All is to be loved. "In truth, there is no right and wrong" (1.6 ). If you see dishonesty in another, you are somehow dishonest. It is okay. It isn't wrong, just imbalanced (that is, if you are STO). Love the part of yourself which is dishonest. Accept it. Then move forward. Honesty will eventually come and the people who find themselves in your awareness will reflect this honesty back to you.

I'm not disagreeing..as I've clarified above. One can have an opinion while also having already accepted these things on a deeper level. Otherwise, all action has no consequence and therefore you have no service to provide, so one might as well stay in their house and do nothing.

Have you ever noticed that in these discussions of finding truth, when one offers an opinion of doubt against another's truth, people typically defend the opinion being critiqued as an exercise of acceptance, yet at the same time ignore the value of the opposing opinion? This person is then viewed as exhibiting qualities of "non-acceptance" because they disagree. In the act of preserving the opinion of one, you dismiss the other. This kind of thinking prevents any kind of real discernible truth from being obtained, because insight is always held at a distance rather than being examined. At some point a person has to transcend certain limits of comfort in seeking/discussion (honesty) if you want to seek in a balanced manner. Otherwise you will always view insightful commentary as infringing upon another's ability to hold onto their truth. There is of course a way to do this with some grace. We can only offer our opinion in various ways and if there isn't agreement, move on.

[3DMonkey]

Yeah. I call it humanity. No matter what "level" one resides, this dynamic remains. Like you said, some can find a more graceful way. Like Georges Stefanopolis vs Carlin.

[David Junior]

If I understand right, Ascension is when space/time and time/space collapse and there is just the one thing, whatever it is called.

Do you mean that time/space comes to an end then space/time takes over

[3DMonkey]

it seems, somewhere along the way, the word 'truth' has been redefined to mean the same as 'belief'.

and somewhere along the way, it has been a requirement for other spiritual seekers to acknowledge and validate others' beliefs by the leftover duplicate meaning of the word truth as in 'true'.

also, the recent propositions of 'creating one's own reality' in spiritual literature seems to have been taken to extremes to basically mean 'whatever i want to believe, becomes true'.

That is absolutely what it means, unity100. "you are creator" "you are one" Every spiritual teaching boils down to 'you live inside your head and you can see each situation however you'd like; might as well make it a peaceful vision'. Nobody thinks it becomes "true". Belief and truth are spiritually synonymous and can't be separated. "You are the Creator. You are the Creator knowing itself. You are one being. You are all that there is. All that there is is what's in your head."

The "truth" we "create" is not anything other that what we CHOOSE to see. Peace is created when we choose to accept what we see as part of ourself, as our choice to perceive. Distress is created when we choose to control what we see and reject it as our own mental choice to perceive it.

IMO, this is the entire work of Ra. It is the most recent and relevant 'packaging' of the spirituality stew.


....
On another note, I want to help unity100 stay true to his logical approach. If I have it right, unity100's opinion on HH boils down to the fact that HH says he is negative and therefore all that was said is falsity. Fair enough.

If we are going to be as logical, we can see a part of the LOO material that must also be considered equally false.

32.4 Questioner: So I should change that third to fourth or green?
Ra: This is correct. Please continue to scan for errors having to do with numbering, as you call them, as this concept is foreign to us and we must translate, if you will, when using numbers. This is an on-going weakness of this contact due to the difference between our ways and yours. Your aid is appreciated.

If we take unity100's approach equally, we should logically conclude that all numbers in the LOO are false.

[native]

Yeah. I call it humanity. No matter what "level" one resides, this dynamic remains. Like you said, some can find a more graceful way. Like Georges Stefanopolis vs Carlin.

Sure, and even with the likes of Carlin, there will always be an aspect of confrontation however..people will inevitably feel attacked unless they're open and receptive.

[JustLikeYou]

Do you not see that I am not dismissing a narrative that serves as some allegory to some which may seem insightful? I know that different people have different moral compasses. Do you not see that I could care less if someone can find value and intuitive resonation with themes in it? That is utterly irrelevant to the situation of one that falsely depicts actual occurrences for the purpose of motivating thought and action towards a desired end. Actually those justifications serving to support such behavior are also consequentialist. So you provide the moral support and encouragement thereby. The marriage

Frankly, I am beginning to wonder whether I have any idea what exactly your critique is.

Information impacts my senses. I determine the value of that information based on all the information I have on hand filtered through two things: the logical system I use, plus my own inner resonance. The resonance tells me what the intent of the message is, my categories tell me how precise and coherent the message is. These are the effective truth filters than any human being has.

If you take issue with your assumption that the story is a lie (and I don't think it necessarily is), then this is my response: You also do not seem to appreciate the capacity that a human being has for picking up truth regardless of the intent of the writer. I have gleaned truths from HH's thread which HH did not even speak or suggest. I don't give a rat's ass if he is lying about everything. I found truth and I can demonstrate the usefulness of the concepts I have found if you should so ask. You can learn something important from everything that meets your awareness.

[JustLikeYou]

I'd also like to mention that I've finished and the HH material and I don't have a firm opinion on what exactly HH means by the world "polarizing negative". I shall examine it further and offer an interpretation when I have time.

I'm not disagreeing..as I've clarified above. One can have an opinion while also having already accepted these things on a deeper level. Otherwise, all action has no consequence and therefore you have no service to provide, so one might as well stay in their house and do nothing.

Then we do agree here. I was attempting to draw a distinction between choosing not to act as others act and condemning others for their motivations which are merely other than your own. It is worth mentioning that the negative polarity seems to draw more emotional debates between LOO followers than any other subject I have seen yet, though my experience is in some ways small. As far as I understand the words, "shouldn't be supportive," they partake in the praise/condemnation polarity which is what lies behind the notions of right and wrong. Obviously, you can mean whatever you want by them and this comment may only reflect my own misinterpretation.

Have you ever noticed that in these discussions of finding truth, when one offers an opinion of doubt against another's truth, people typically defend the opinion being critiqued as an exercise of acceptance, yet at the same time ignore the value of the opposing opinion? This person is then viewed as exhibiting qualities of "non-acceptance" because they disagree. In the act of preserving the opinion of one, you dismiss the other. This kind of thinking prevents any kind of real discernible truth from being obtained, because insight is always held at a distance rather than being examined. At some point a person has to transcend certain limits of comfort in seeking/discussion (honesty) if you want to seek in a balanced manner. Otherwise you will always view insightful commentary as infringing upon another's ability to hold onto their truth. There is of course a way to do this with some grace. We can only offer our opinion in various ways and if there isn't agreement, move on.

If the 'light touch' is not practiced with grace, then it is a matter of course that the person who 'doubts' and then attempts to use this light touch will receive a karmic response, a catalyst indicating that the touch needs to be lighter. Those who defend the original opinion against the opposing opinion are that catalyst in this case. Witness this specific instance.

In my ongoing process of learning the light touch (the hard way), I have found that a graceless effort often comes in tandem with a misunderstanding of the person I want to 'touch' -- a misunderstanding about which I must learn to be silent.



I would like to thank everyone who has been communicating in this particular thread. Every time I post I find myself reflecting on my words, only to discover that everything I have said to each of you has also been something I needed to hear myself. You do reflect my own reality back to me, after all. Thank you for that opportunity.

[unity100]

...................

so many things to be explained, so many references to be made to the material we are discussing that, i am put off by the sheer effort required to do it.

my apologies, but i wont discuss with you on this matter. you may continue to load grand meanings pertaining to 6th and higher rays onto the 2 and 3rd rays of negative polarization. that is as much as i want to say on this matter.

[zenmaster]

Do you not see that I am not dismissing a narrative that serves as some allegory to some which may seem insightful? I know that different people have different moral compasses. Do you not see that I could care less if someone can find value and intuitive resonation with themes in it? That is utterly irrelevant to the situation of one that falsely depicts actual occurrences for the purpose of motivating thought and action towards a desired end. Actually those justifications serving to support such behavior are also consequentialist. So you provide the moral support and encouragement thereby. The marriage

Frankly, I am beginning to wonder whether I have any idea what exactly your critique is.

Information impacts my senses. I determine the value of that information based on all the information I have on hand filtered through two things: the logical system I use, plus my own inner resonance. The resonance tells me what the intent of the message is, my categories tell me how precise and coherent the message is. These are the effective truth filters than any human being has.

If you take issue with your assumption that the story is a lie (and I don't think it necessarily is), then this is my response: You also do not seem to appreciate the capacity that a human being has for picking up truth regardless of the intent of the writer. I have gleaned truths from HH's thread which HH did not even speak or suggest. I don't give a rat's a$$ if he is lying about everything. I found truth and I can demonstrate the usefulness of the concepts I have found if you should so ask. You can learn something important from everything that meets your awareness.

But what is the point that a human being can pick up truth regardless of intent? As if there was another way that you are attempting to distinguish?
That fact that people continue to learn is beside the point. I thought I made that clear. It has nothing to do with what someone may or may not 'get out of it'.

---

Yeah. I call it humanity. No matter what "level" one resides, this dynamic remains.

A dynamic remains, certainly. But like everything else, dynamics evolve as distortions are removed.
So saying "this" dynamic remains is like continuing to point out that the earth orbits around the sun when the subject matter is that the sun orbits the galactic core. It's not disagreeable because it is valid in its own scope. The difficulty is getting past that restricted scope, and not placing needless limitations on ever evolving m/b/s dynamics.

As with always being able to make out figures in what any cloud formation suggests, we can always pick two polarities from which to depict opposites, and then proclaim "this dynamic remains". I do think it's funny because there is a dynamic - a valuing meme - that gives rise to that dynamic. At each subdensity we tend to think we've found 'it' (the meta-dynamic or whatever). You'd think we'd learn something by now.

[3DMonkey]

You'd think we'd learn something by now.

(I truly do love conversing with you)

You'd think we would, but we don't. I'm just of the opinion that we won't.

("smoke 'em if you got 'em" )

[zenmaster]

You'd think we'd learn something by now.

(I truly do love conversing with you)

You'd think we would, but we don't. I'm just of the opinion that we won't.

("smoke 'em if you got 'em" )

"Place not the candle against the wall"

[3DMonkey]

Persist not in enlightening the stupid?

It's difficult to think deeply about that one. It just makes me laugh.

---

Oh! Aha! "Don't find yourself screaming 'shutup and listen to me, you aren't listening, you don't get it'= persist"

---

(you'll get more reflective light in the room though. btw)

[native]

As far as I understand the words, "shouldn't be supportive," they partake in the praise/condemnation polarity which is what lies behind the notions of right and wrong. Obviously, you can mean whatever you want by them and this comment may only reflect my own misinterpretation.

In that statement I was speaking from the perspective of my conclusion, which I believe the HH dialogue to be a fabrication.

..a catalyst indicating that the touch needs to be lighter.

Yes and no, in my opinion. An emotional response to a valid observation suggests catalyst in the one responding. There certainly is an art to communication though, especially when a person wishes to teach. Again, honesty is inherently direct because it is confrontational, not in the sense of purposely causing conflict, but that it will ask another to consider what they're ignoring without tip-toeing around the issue.

I would like to thank everyone who has been communicating in this particular thread. Every time I post I find myself reflecting on my words, only to discover that everything I have said to each of you has also been something I needed to hear myself. You do reflect my own reality back to me, after all. Thank you for that opportunity.

You're welcome. This forum has a lot to offer.

[apeiron]

I'd also like to mention that I've finished and the HH material and I don't have a firm opinion on what exactly HH means by the world "polarizing negative". I shall examine it further and offer an interpretation when I have time.

I'm not disagreeing..as I've clarified above. One can have an opinion while also having already accepted these things on a deeper level. Otherwise, all action has no consequence and therefore you have no service to provide, so one might as well stay in their house and do nothing.

Then we do agree here. I was attempting to draw a distinction between choosing not to act as others act and condemning others for their motivations which are merely other than your own. It is worth mentioning that the negative polarity seems to draw more emotional debates between LOO followers than any other subject I have seen yet, though my experience is in some ways small. As far as I understand the words, "shouldn't be supportive," they partake in the praise/condemnation polarity which is what lies behind the notions of right and wrong. Obviously, you can mean whatever you want by them and this comment may only reflect my own misinterpretation.

Have you ever noticed that in these discussions of finding truth, when one offers an opinion of doubt against another's truth, people typically defend the opinion being critiqued as an exercise of acceptance, yet at the same time ignore the value of the opposing opinion? This person is then viewed as exhibiting qualities of "non-acceptance" because they disagree. In the act of preserving the opinion of one, you dismiss the other. This kind of thinking prevents any kind of real discernible truth from being obtained, because insight is always held at a distance rather than being examined. At some point a person has to transcend certain limits of comfort in seeking/discussion (honesty) if you want to seek in a balanced manner. Otherwise you will always view insightful commentary as infringing upon another's ability to hold onto their truth. There is of course a way to do this with some grace. We can only offer our opinion in various ways and if there isn't agreement, move on.

If the 'light touch' is not practiced with grace, then it is a matter of course that the person who 'doubts' and then attempts to use this light touch will receive a karmic response, a catalyst indicating that the touch needs to be lighter. Those who defend the original opinion against the opposing opinion are that catalyst in this case. Witness this specific instance.

In my ongoing process of learning the light touch (the hard way), I have found that a graceless effort often comes in tandem with a misunderstanding of the person I want to 'touch' -- a misunderstanding about which I must learn to be silent.



I would like to thank everyone who has been communicating in this particular thread. Every time I post I find myself reflecting on my words, only to discover that everything I have said to each of you has also been something I needed to hear myself. You do reflect my own reality back to me, after all. Thank you for that opportunity.

The time-space influence has to have an effect if in space-time one accepts as "truth" a statement made by an STS entity that clearly proclaims to be so. Even if it is accepting a seemingly positive and truthful statement from that entity, are not you accepting the negative entity to have influence in you? Are not you welcoming the negativity as a friend? Is this safe to do? The confederation chooses to withdraw.