2018_1103 - Preincarnative Choices

[Sacred Fool]

Peregrine. I have a small question on this.

Would you agree that at some point the entity starts planning the incarnation with the lessons it desires to learn , and them once plunged into 3D it has of course complete  free will, but meeting the different catalysts planned and so making the free choice each time to embrace or not and then such or such catalyst coming back during incarnation so lessons desired are always offered ?

Hi there.

Yes.

I might add that, according to the Q'uo ideology--and I happen to accept it--programmed experiences are chosen so as to help balance the over all energies of one's soul stream.  These lessons are so general in nature that one will inevitably encounter catalyst, regardless of how thickly or thinly it is programmed.

Generally, in an incarnation entities are looking to balance love with wisdom, wisdom with power, or some variety of two or three of those three aspects of the godhead principle: love, light and power.

Needless to say, to the extent that one can recognize which of these are the repeated themes of one's life experiences, one can work those more diligently and thereby obviate the need for more brutal catalyst.  It always helps to catch these things in a subtle stage before they hit with a heavy punch.
 

[redchartreuse]

Resurrecting this thread as I found another session all about preincarnative choices while researching a (seemingly) different topic.  It is 2016_0305.

Here Hatonn says:  "Many entities have programed situations which are most difficult to consider experiencing in a conscious fashion in the third-density illusion. There are various reasons why entities may choose to suffer, as you would say, to place themselves in a situation which seems to cause excessive pain physically, emotionally, mentally, and perhaps even spiritually."

It seems to me that I am back at square one on this.   Entities DO indeed choose to suffer.  Ostensibly to learn how to love others, despite their own suffering, if indeed as Hatonn further says, "Learning to love under all possible circumstances is indeed the goal which each of you seeks."

So then entities not only choose to inflict suffering upon themselves in order to learn how to love others (still sounds a little loco if you ask me) but they also program the **situations** i.e. even the physical circumstances themselves, which lead to this experience of suffering.

So then, the question remains... HOW does an soul accomplish such programming?  It would appear to require the ability to manipulate space/time at will, and be able to cause certain events to happen that are otherwise seen as "accidents" and for which the incarnated entity would never have consciously chosen for itself.

i.e. Would never had put its tent under the tree that was to fall down that evening.  Or mindlessly stepped in front of that oncoming vehicle.  Or "just so happen" to take a wrong turn leading down a dark alleyway just at the same time that a criminal passed by... In other words "place themselves" into situations intended to create suffering, even though the incarnated self would not consciously choose this, and quite often objects.  

Is this what a loving parent would do?  Thrust its already battered and fear-ridden child into yet another situation of intense suffering "for its own good"?  Doesn't that sound like abuse?  I mean, literally, haven't we all heard of situations where a child is locked into a closet and starved "for its own good"?  

Wouldn't just about everybody, everywhere (who isn't severely mentally ill and/or a psychopath) consider such a situation to be utterly abhorrent and appalling, and immediately take action to intervene if they learned about something like that happening?

It's all very strange to me.  It seems to me that the soul has the free will and/or ability to cause reductions in the awareness of its incarnations (resulting in all manner of seeming "accidents" and other "unfortunate" circumstances), but either lacks the ability, or is reticent to use the ability, to cause increases in the awareness of its incarnated self.

Let's take it further.  Let's say perhaps I choose right here and now to learn what it is like to learn to love while experiencing joy, happiness, and well-being.  Would this be duly honored by my soul as my "free will" choice?  

Or must I continue to suffer because... you know... "preincarnative choices"?  

Really, what would be the harm in it?  Maybe if I already learned that lesson of how to love while experiencing joy, happiness, and well-being, then I would be quickly reminded that I already know how to do that, and then would certainly choose again to learn how to love while suffering.  Right?  Since there is all the time in infinity for me to learn this lesson about loving others while suffering myself, then what is all this seeming urgency and insistence upon my suffering REALLY about?  Why must I suffer HERE and NOW?

Maybe I just want a break from this particular "lesson" about loving while suffering.  Would that be OK with my soul?  Or is all this talk about "free will" to choose the manner of my learning really start to break down under closer scrutiny?

And what about all this ***energy*** of suffering that is being spewed into the metaphysical atmosphere by those of us who are suffering?  Doesn't that actually energize/feed/serve those on the negative path?  

And so... if my spiritual goal were to polarize to the positive... then wouldn't it behoove me to abandon this insane quest to "love while suffering"?  Since my suffering serves those of the negative polarity, wouldn't that result in a net loss of my own polarity, rather than a net gain?  

Let's put it all back together.  We are being told that souls choose to suffer, in order to learn how to love.  We are also being told that the purpose of incarnation is to make a choice of polarity, and then to polarize along that path.  Yet the souls choosing to suffer during their preincarnative planning sessions surely would have been able to clearly see that all the fear, sadness, and anger that will be generated as a result of their having preincarnatively chosen to suffer would actually serve the purposes of those who are choosing to polarize to the negative. Since it is much easier to control and manipulate others who are suffering, and producing these negative emotional energies as a result, and thus further empowering the negatively polarized to violate the free will of others, and cause further suffering.

It's almost as if the "light" and the "dark" are in cahoots.  Hey... if you agree, we'll go make the conditions of intense suffering on earth, so that you can go down there and do that "learning how to love" thing. *wink wink*

Yet the soul, being the soul, already knows how to love.  Right?  And as far as "loving while suffering" is concerned... hasn't humanity already thoroughly explored every little nook and cranny of that type of experience already, anyhow?   Haven't we already suffered and loved in every which way possible?  What need is there to repeat this suffering over and over again?  

Except perhaps to provide more sustenance for those who are choosing to grow at another's expense.  In other words, fashioning a "short-circuit" to the naturally occurring spiritual growth process, and then attempting to pass off the distorted/corrupted pathway as the original.

Something smells really fishy to me here.  Yet, I continue to be open to simply being confused...

"Learning to love under all possible circumstances is indeed the goal which each of you seeks."

Seeing as how there are an infinity of "possible circumstances" there is no way of meeting such a goal.  No matter how depraved the circumstance, or intense the suffering, there would forever spring our view, yet another more depraved circumstance, greater atrocity, deeper suffering for us to experience.

Only an insane mind would call this "love".

[AnthroHeart]

Like you said, if we learn our lessons, there is no need for further suffering.
But the physical is difficult to change.
If you have a physical handicap or pain, that is hard to change because our thoughts stay with the pain or circumstance.
When we learn our lesson, our thinking needs to change as well.

[flofrog]

rechartreuse,
here is something, I don't know if that might resonate a bit or not.

I once, had a reading many years ago about 32 years which was the only reading I had for myself.  I had a second one about 12 years  but which was in fact for someone of my family so not directly concerning me.

The one I had thirty two years ago was because at the time I had a child who was ill, in fact in a coma, and I just wanted to make sure we were doing everything possible for his care.  The reading  was done by a young man who was also musician,  and had discovered when he was a teen that he could channel information from spiritual guides for a person who would come and seek information.  He believed in reincarnation and would only help someone who would believe in it, and he would meet that person seeking help only once, to make sure he wouldn't become a crutch for anyone.  He also advised he would never forsee what the future had in for that person but might just  review  options that a person might have, so as not to infringe on free will. All of it was recorded.

He would first make an astrological portray for like an hour and a half and then for the next hour and a half he would  speak more slowly  and relay the thoughts of your spiritual guides,  who would review what he had said,  and they would correct or add information.

He said, or rather my spiritual guides,  said one interesting thing about this specific subject of suffering and challenges.  They did say that at a certain point of evolution, exactly like Ra says,  the person would start to plan its own incarnation and then they said : " Imagine a large puzzle,  then you decide to put one piece, two pieces, three pieces of the puzzle in that one incarnation.  The more pieces you put, the more challenges  you meet, and this sometimes may become  a heavy incarnation, but then you put more pieces of the puzzle."    I though that was such an interesting way to look at it..

Dont know if that helps  on this difficult subject of love and suffering.  I personally do not think that we are constantly under a mandatory seal  to experiment love constantly, while in the bottom of sorrow and suffering, it's more like I think everyone does their best at the given moment, and it's ok, but that's just my view.  It is true that when you voluntarily veer your mind towards love, well it tends to become easier  

[redchartreuse]

Hi flofrog,

I hope things worked out well for your child!

What you shared resonates a bit... it reminds me of a time period in my life about 20 years ago when I was intensely studying astrology.  Besides just being an interesting topic for me, I had this hope that the study of astrology would somehow allow me to unlock some of these mysteries for me, or at least give me some additional tools to aid in my spiritual growth.

Somewhat surprisingly, this whole endeavor fell pretty far short of my original expectations for it.  But to make a long story short, in the end I came to the same place your guides, and Ra, have said.   The grand conclusion was that a person's natal chart only governs their experience and behavior to the degree that the person is not spiritually conscious.  The more conscious one becomes, the more one is able to consciously utilize these forces to choose and direct their own "personal play" going forward.  And since we cannot ultimately know from simply looking at the outside the level of spiritual advancement of one person or another, then performing chart readings is a crap shoot at best, a stumbling block at worst, and in all cases likely a waste of time.

Since the natal chart governs an individual inversely proportional to their level of consciousness, then those with the most accurate chart readings are also the least likely to get anything out of it, if they feel drawn to astrology at all.  

I appreciate the reminder that ratiocination is not the primary purpose for our existence here.  Yet also, we are often in need of reminding that, having been bestowed with minds, it was with the intention that we use them.

In other words, I believe there is something more to be gleaned from taking a deeper dive into the philosophy of choosing suffering in order to "better learn" how to love.

For example, I find myself wondering if there is some significance to the fact that the 5D (Latwii) and 6D (Ra) portions of the Q'uo complex chose to bow out of responding to this query, leaving only Hatonn (4D) to respond. This whole idea of throwing oneself into ever deeper darkness, in order that one may "discover" what it already was is highly questionable, to my view.

Not any more "wrong" than any other path, but the sort of path that never really ends unless or until one decides to abandon it.  Sort of like being a drug addict, or a thief, or a sex worker.  While there is no need to "judge" anybody for it, there is also no need to normalize it to the point where no further attempt is made to assist a person to choose differently.  

Sure, maybe a lot was learned.  But again just because lemons can be used to make lemonade, doesn't mean we should dig up all our other fruit trees and plant only lemons!

Hatonn said that "Learning to love under all possible circumstances is indeed the goal which each of you seeks."

Sure, sounds like a worthwhile goal on the surface.  But is it attainable?  I think with a little further scrutiny you may come to agree that it is not, in fact, an attainable goal.

The universe is infinite, therefore there is always going to be another "possible circumstance" and this also includes circumstances of such extreme depravity and suffering that earth would like like a playground by contrast.  

There is no end to the negative, or the positive for that matter.  Which is why, sooner or later, we must rise above it.  We must stop fighting to achieve something which we already are.  That also means deciding that "enough is enough" when it comes to subjecting ourselves to suffering in order to "learn how to love".

Remember- there is nobody else to judge us but ourselves.  We have no need to "prove" our ability to love, since this is our very nature and who we are.  So I think we may all do well to take pause to think twice when a channeled source tells us we should simply accept suffering because we "asked for it."

Perhaps we did ask for it.  But that doesn't mean we were in our right minds when we did.

As Ra said, "The fourth density is the only density besides your own which, lacking the wisdom to refrain from battle, sees the necessity of the battle."

[Sacred Fool]

Hatonn said that "Learning to love under all possible circumstances is indeed the goal which each of you seeks."

Sure, sounds like a worthwhile goal on the surface.  But is it attainable?  I think with a little further scrutiny you may come to agree that it is not, in fact, an attainable goal.

The universe is infinite, therefore there is always going to be another "possible circumstance" and this also includes circumstances of such extreme depravity and suffering that earth would like like a playground by contrast.  

There is no end to the negative, or the positive for that matter.  Which is why, sooner or later, we must rise above it.  We must stop fighting to achieve something which we already are.  That also means deciding that "enough is enough" when it comes to subjecting ourselves to suffering in order to "learn how to love".

At some point you may wish to consider the idea that you are completely missing the lesson here.  Of course, from the standpoint of logical construction, there is no end to positive and negative, but "rising above it" through detachment (enough is enough) is neither here nor there vis-a-vis the spiritual lesson being offered. 

The lesson is about whether or not your being vibrates mainly with 3d concerns for personal outcome or whether it vibrates with encompassing love, a love greater than your concern for personal outcome.  "Learning how to love" is about learning to be love, how to vibrate with it such that you surrender to it and merge with it.  Details about the quantity of suffering in the Universe are not so compelling compared to this lesson your soul desires you to learn.....in my opinion. 

The lesson has to do with how well prepared you are to walk those spiritual steps of light at your graduation ceremony.

 

[redchartreuse]

At some point you may wish to consider the idea that you are completely missing the lesson here.

No worries, I am incessantly considering the idea that I am completely missing the lesson here, simply by virtue of my still being here.

Of course, from the standpoint of logical construction, there is no end to positive and negative, but "rising above it" through detachment (enough is enough) is neither here nor there vis-a-vis the spiritual lesson being offered.

Why not?  Maybe the lesson is that there was never anything to "learn".  Why would a being born of love, whose very being is fashioned from love itself, need to learn how to be that which it already is?

And even besides all that, one need not be swimming in a sea of suffering (both of self and others) in order to experience itself as love.

The lesson is about whether or not your being vibrates mainly with 3d concerns for personal outcome or whether it vibrates with encompassing love, a love greater than your concern for personal outcome.

I don't follow.  You are saying that one must "love while suffering" in order to learn that 3D personal concerns aren't the end-all-be-all of existence?

There is no need for concern regarding the outcome of our 3D lives, since it is both inevitable and identical to all.  Our body dies.  Ashes to ashes; dust to dust. Hopefully, somewhere along the way, we have made the choice that we came here to make so that we may go on our merry way to the next adventure.  But choosing a service-to-others philosophy need not have anything to do with the alleviation of suffering, either of self or for others.

Rather, it appears to me that those of us who have chosen the service-to-self path are the ones who require other-selves to "choose to suffer" of their own so-called "free will" so that they continue to reap the harvest of negative emotion (fear, despair, anger) which they can then leverage in order to exert further control and dominance, all the while convincing others that suffering is a "necessary evil" or even "for their own good."  It is the so-called "dark side" that requires suffering, i.e. the degradation of free will, in order to operate.  And as long as the "light side" is willing to play along, it will continue indefinitely.  

This degradation of free will is, for example, what pedophiles do while they are grooming children to be victims.   Step by step, they get them to "agree" to more and more boundary violations until they can no longer tell the difference between what feels right and wrong to them.  Perhaps even to the point where they openly "ask" to be abused by the perpetrator.

Details about the quantity of suffering in the Universe are not so compelling compared to this lesson your soul desires you to learn.....in my opinion.

Huh, really?  See to my view, I think we would do very well to keep in in the forefront of our mind that the degree of suffering going on here is not, by any means, typical of the Creation at large.  Lest we become complacent in normalizing and allowing extraordinary levels of suffering to deepen and spread, both for others and for ourselves.  Let's not forget, there's plenty of plain vanilla suffering at the ready for any physical being trying to survive and reproduce out there in the Creation.  It works just fine and has withstood the many passings of ages, on a near infinite number of worlds.

Our Solar Logos is experimenting with the "standard model" for spiritual evolution by thickening the veil and the furthering the distortion of free will with the aim of "speeding up" the process. Yet the apparent outcome of this experiment seems to be an environment of extreme suffering and low vibrations and with a large swath of the population languishing in the "sinkhole of indifference" at the close of a major cycle.

It is entirely possible that, in retrospect, the lesson learned from this whole "growth through suffering" thing will have been to never do it again.  Causing an excessively large portion of the souls to miss the harvest and repeat a major cycle certainly does not appear to me to be congruent with the goal of "speeding up" spiritual growth.  And earth isn't even the first planet in this system to suffer this.  Ra says that two other planets which also resulted in exceedingly low harvests, and with one resulting in the physical destruction of a planet, and with ours on the brink of destruction, and resulting in an unprecedented level of intervention stretching all the way to the next octave.

If we have not yet sufficiently learned to love amidst all this "free will" that has been heavily distorted toward suffering, then surely piling on even more isn't going to help the issue.  We are spiritual children, many of us still in a highly traumatized state, and just because we "choose to suffer" does not mean it is a wise choice, or a healthy choice.   And just because our Solar Logos has taken a particularly libertine parenting philosophy that permits us to "choose our own manner of suffering" does not mean that is a wise or healthy form of spiritual parenting either, as perhaps could be seen against a wider backdrop of other philosophies deployed by different Solar Logoi in other systems throughout the Creation.

[Sacred Fool]

At some point you may wish to consider the idea that you are completely missing the lesson here.

No worries, I am incessantly considering the idea that I am completely missing the lesson here, simply by virtue of my still being here.

Me too.

Of course, from the standpoint of logical construction, there is no end to positive and negative, but "rising above it" through detachment (enough is enough) is neither here nor there vis-a-vis the spiritual lesson being offered.

Why not?  Maybe the lesson is that there was never anything to "learn".  Why would a being born of love, whose very being is fashioned from love itself, need to learn how to be that which it already is?

And even besides all that, one need not be swimming in a sea of suffering (both of self and others) in order to experience itself as love.

With all due respect, rc, your copy reads to me like Dispatches From The Sinkhole as compared to, say, the yearning of a being which delights in service to the one Creator.  These are two distinct  layers of the multi-level game board, but it feels to me that your compass of play perceives the existence of the delight-in-service layer, but does not reach it in spirit, does not reach it operationally.  To feel the delight and satisfaction of one's energy bodies adapting to greater intensities of Light and Love cannot be overstated.  The feeling of increased polarization, and moving further from the sinkhole is, like, wicked awesome.  I'm guessing that if you explore more on that level, you'll make sense of your hatonn quote above. 

Referring to your own statement immediately above, one has to learn what one is (Love) because it simply requires learned skill to encompass more layers of consciousness into one's ability to play in consciousness.  If you open up all the interconnections at once, you get a big mess.  They must needs be encompassed progressively and thoughtfully.

 

[redchartreuse]

Me too.

Well then, maybe we both are.  Perhaps if we continue to share our perspectives we can both come out ahead.  

With all due respect, rc, your copy reads to me like Dispatches From The Sinkhole as compared to, say, the yearning of a being which delights in service to the one Creator.

Oh, c'mon!  That's quite a loaded statement. Not sure what your purpose is in saying this, but...

The sinkhole doesn't care about these things, much less ponder and seek around them.  The sinkhole is indifferent.  Observing the intense suffering of those around it, it simply accepts that which is given on a very superficial level, and without a second thought.  Then it goes to watch football and have a beer with its pals.  Maybe it throws a mostly-eaten chicken wing onto the floor for the stray puppy lurking nearby, and then feels self-satisfied that it "did its good deed for the day" while conveniently ignoring the possibility that the dog may choke on the bone and die.

Respect back atcha, however I've noticed that you have not responded to anything I've said about the harvesting of negative emotional energy which is generated by those who are suffering.  Is that intentional?

What I'm wondering is, must others continue to exist in such a state of deep suffering, so that I may "delight" in serving them?  Is there really no other way? I think if you would please step back from publicly assessing my spiritual status for a moment to truly ponder this question, you will also come to the conclusion that... yes... of course there is another way.

These are two distinct  layers of the multi-level game board, but it feels to me that your compass of play perceives the existence of the delight-in-service layer, but does not reach it in spirit, does not reach it operationally.

So then, your prescription for my further enlightenment would, of course, be yet another good heap of suffering?  Is this what you believe will provide the ostensibly much needed lift to my spirit-wings?  

Because this is not clear to me.  Looking about this world, and all the intense suffering going on here, it appears to me that it is too much.  It appears to be holding people down, rather than lifting them up.

Seems to me that what the world needs is a good dose of pragmatism.  Of realization that certain philosophies do not produce the intended result, and should be abandoned, rather than doubled-down upon.

To feel the delight and satisfaction of one's energy bodies adapting to greater intensities of Light and Love cannot be overstated.  The feeling of increased polarization, and moving further from the sinkhole is, like, wicked awesome.

So is the feeling of sniffing cocaine.  Exhilarating!  But that doesn't make it good for you, or others.  Rather, it is an intense but very brief "high" that requires ever increasing doses of the drug in order to reproduce, and typically results over the long term in the destruction of one's health and relationships, not to mention their pocketbook.

So you are saying that it's a good thing so many are in the sinkhole, and failing to achieve their primary purpose for incarnating, because we get to feel "wicked awesome" (?!) by contrast?  Wouldn't that constitute growth at another's expense?

Perhaps... we are addicted to our suffering.  Isn't that idea worthy of our fullest and sincere consideration?  It seems to me that you are feeling threatened somehow by this line of inquiry.  Upsetting your applecart, perhaps?

Let's get a little more pithy, shall we?

To my perception,  I AM here in service to the Creator.  Or more specifically what we would call the Galactic Logos.  I seek to serve the Solar or Planetary Logoi to the extent that they seek realignment with the original intention for this Creation.  And the intention of this Creation is not to make ever increasing picnics of pain and suffering, and even grander perversities of nature, for dark souls to delight in.  That is something that was "chosen" on a lower level of the Creation, and is not in any way representative of the state of affairs in the Creation at large.  That's what my "heart of hearts" has to say on the matter.

[AnthroHeart]

In The Matrix, Agent Smith talked about how the first Matrix was created to be a perfect world where none suffered. It was a disaster and failed.
No one could accept the programming and that we are built to suffer.

[redchartreuse]

In The Matrix, Agent Smith talked about how the first Matrix was created to be a perfect world where none suffered. It was a disaster and failed.
No one could accept the programming and that we are built to suffer.

LOL!  Exactly, IGW.  And Agent Smith was a psychopathic computer program attempting to justify the failure of the machines by projecting his own psychopathic nature onto his victims. 

The reason the first matrix failed, and all those which came after it, is because human beings were never meant to be enslaved and degraded into food for machines in the first place.

[Glow]

Resurrecting this thread as I found another session all about preincarnative choices while researching a (seemingly) different topic.  It is 2016_0305.

"Learning to love under all possible circumstances is indeed the goal which each of you seeks."

So then entities not only choose to inflict suffering upon themselves in order to learn how to love others (still sounds a little loco if you ask me) but they also program the **situations** i.e. even the physical circumstances themselves, which lead to this experience of suffering.

What is actually learned from easy love? Everything is perfect or even mostly, and you can love others... well that's good because You are love so that makes perfect sense

But its hard, life is tough the world is cruel and people are so heartless. Now prove to me/you(we are one) you are love god that's a whole lot harder isn't it. Especially when the ones you are trying to love just hurt you over and over with increasing cruelty.
Did you still manage to be love or did you turn dark. Wake up from that life, stayed loved, gave respite with your patent enduring love.
You grew. The love we are is now tested. Maybe time for a different lesson, or we go into a less veiled realm for a while to love in unveiled nuance.

Turned dark? well I am sure you are glad to be resting on space/time now, with all your other identities your soul has been, I swear we are such good company, it's good to be home, you are unveiled and see how you could have made it through, and stayed of love. It's ok we can focus now on being ship captains for 50 years till we run through all the stuff we want to encounter incarnated in that space/time.

We can return our focus to trying to beat the challenges of redchartruese later after we live as captains, then maybe a marine biologist for 80 years, maybe a motocross rider for 35 years, at some point we can refocus on living the challenges we didn't quite get in each of these lives but hmm maybe we can work some of those challenges into other lives in smaller pieces first, or some of the things we learn in other livess will help us when we refocus on those challanges..

It isn't a mystery, we are one eternal being in infinity. Why would trying to increase our capacity for love not seem like exactly what we would do. At least for a while.

So then, the question remains... HOW does an soul accomplish such programming?  It would appear to require the ability to manipulate space/time at will, and be able to cause certain events to happen that are otherwise seen as "accidents" and for which the incarnated entity would never have consciously chosen for itself.

Time/space isn't linear at all, it is more like a cloud of diffuse energy, or light. All things being one and separate means that being one there is no issue shifting every interaction/activity/conversation exactly so the needed experiences line up. Being all one it isn't hard to arrange just like smoke swirls and moves around together but constantly in flux so does time/space.

It's almost as if the "light" and the "dark" are in cahoots.  Hey... if you agree, we'll go make the conditions of intense suffering on earth, so that you can go down there and do that "learning how to love" thing.  *wink wink*

We actually are all one. Lucifer means light bringer not because the energy is gentle and chill, it brings catalyst that affords the opportunity for growth, expansion, and increasing intensity and depth of light.

Have you met people who have struggled like crazy through life really endured the s*** but stays gentle, tolerant, loving and compassionate? They are amazing.

Ever met a person who has been handed everything but is selfish, lacks empathy, can't really love people only use them for what they provide? Do you think a soul with eternity on it's hand isn't going to want to take the parts it has discovered of itself that are prone to being the entitled being and try to over many lives help them to be a bit more like the compassionate being.

Yet the soul, being the soul, already knows how to love.  Right?  And as far as "loving while suffering" is concerned... hasn't humanity already thoroughly explored every little nook and cranny of that type of experience already, anyhow?   Haven't we already suffered and loved in every which way possible?  What need is there to repeat this suffering over and over again?  

The soul is love but it isn't tested and developed of depth and perfection. The veil and these incarnations develop the soul. Like a muscle. we all have muscles. But each isn't as strong or flexible. Of course that is only an analogy and maybe a bad one but a soul exists in time exploring infinite things and experiences creates more depth, nuance, more capacity to love. Better more deeper experiences.


That likely wasn't a satisfactory answer. I think if you meditate an just focus on connecting to your soul beyond ego the understanding will come, I can feel you are circling it so eventually this understanding will be yours. The soul and silence can really help understanding this.

[Glow]

Seeing as how there are an infinity of "possible circumstances" there is no way of meeting such a goal.  No matter how depraved the circumstance, or intense the suffering, there would forever spring our view, yet another more depraved circumstance, greater atrocity, deeper suffering for us to experience.

Only an insane mind would call this "love".

That is kind of the point an ever expanding energy of love tested and true.

[Minyatur]

For example, say a person dies in a tragic car accident. Think of all the little things that have to happen just at the "right time" to come together to create the fatal accident. Including a number of actions taken by other people, who ostensibly have their own free will and preincarnative choices.

How is it that the higher self has the power/ability to bring all these things into manifestation?

Tough question. What comes to mind as means are a form of spiritual gravity and resonance.

The small events leading to the big event could come and be in many ways, but will converge toward the big event.

[flofrog]

How is it that the higher self has the power/ability to bring all these things into manifestation?

Tough question. What comes to mind as means are a forn of spiritual gravity and resonance.

The small events leading to the big event could come and be in many ways, but will converge toward the big event.

I love that Minyature, resonates a lot.

rc, getting back to the concept of love upheld under any circumstance possible as a goal, sounds like a very difficult obligation for sure, if we look at it as an obligation and feel ok so this is what I must attain. but I,think we can experience unconditional love in any situation, which can be easy and happy, or, when we are in the darkness of night, since each experience is unique.

Then I think that when we experience this pure love in these peculiar situations, sometimes very dire situation, love for any human being, any plant, any animal, the wonder of experiencing it makes it easier to reproduce later, little by little, and as it becomes more accessible, then I think the whole process becomes much easier and much more attainable, whether this is effectively our main goal or not.

I think we discover slowly it might be much easier than we thought. So I wouldn’t despair.

In fact sorts of goes back a bit to what Minyature said

[Sacred Fool]

Me too.

Well then, maybe we both are.  Perhaps if we continue to share our perspectives we can both come out ahead.  

With all due respect, rc, your copy reads to me like Dispatches From The Sinkhole as compared to, say, the yearning of a being which delights in service to the one Creator.

Oh, c'mon!  That's quite a loaded statement. Not sure what your purpose is in saying this, but...

Well, we disagree, which is fine.  You wondered how the Hatonn quote makes sense in light of the great magnitude of suffering enacted upon the stage of this planet.  I was just trying to say that the view is different where you're camped out as compared to where one resides who is wholly committed to service to the Creator.

To my way of reckoning, you're pitching your tent in a place of conditional service.  ("I seek to serve the Solar or Planetary Logoi to the extent that they seek realignment with the original intention for this Creation.") This is not in the chicken wing sinkhole you colorfully describe, but there is, in my view, an element here of the pendular polarization Q'uo describes where it swings to the selfless, then there is a reaction to the selfish, then there is neutrality, then a swing....  Please correct me if I am off-track here, but, based on long personal experience, I would say that this sort of pattern basically goes in circles.  In that sense I consider it a sinkhole.  But this comparison might only be meaningful to one whose deep heart's desire is to offer self to Divinity, without stint, without reservation.


By the way, as to the harvest of fear and trauma this planet offers to negatively oriented beings, I certainly agree that this is a sad, unfortunate situation.  It's the reason that the Brothers and Sisters of Sorrow folks have joined in with this mess to make small offerings of love in the face of darkness.  And this requires intense polarization, and that brings one closer to a place where this makes sense: "Learning to love under all possible circumstances is indeed the goal which each of you seeks."

 
Also, even though, personally, cocaine has no effect on me, I get your point about cheap thrills.  But I think I'm referring to something more interesting than that.  Viz.: the experience of intense polarization offers a wanderer in this density a tiny taste of what a more expanded self used to feel like back in the old days, if you will.  And that can give a boost to morale of the highest order, I would aver.

 

[redchartreuse]

Well, we disagree, which is fine.  You wondered how the Hatonn quote makes sense in light of the great magnitude of suffering enacted upon the stage of this planet.  I was just trying to say that the view is different where you're camped out as compared to where one resides who is wholly committed to service to the Creator.

Sure, our disagreement is fine.  But such things are mere appearances, anyway.  Right?

To my way of reckoning, you're pitching your tent in a place of conditional service.  ("I seek to serve the Solar or Planetary Logoi to the extent that they seek realignment with the original intention for this Creation.") This is not in the chicken wing sinkhole you colorfully describe, but there is, in my view, an element here of the pendular polarization Q'uo describes where it swings to the selfless, then there is a reaction to the selfish, then there is neutrality, then a swing....  Please correct me if I am off-track here, but, based on long personal experience, I would say that this sort of pattern basically goes in circles.  In that sense I consider it a sinkhole.  But this comparison might only be meaningful to one whose deep heart's desire is to offer self to Divinity, without stint, without reservation.

All service is service to the Creator, or Divinity as you may call it.  Yes, the service is conditional because I am a being defined by conditions.  There are certain gifts I have to give, and certain gifts that I do not have to give.  It is not wise to have the gardener be put to do the electrical work, and the electrician out laying the sewer pipe.

That is how things tend to work here on this planet.  Look around!  This energy is all around us- we are swimming in it.  This... is the sinkhole.  It is the "why bother" because one is continually put in circumstances that severely limit their ability to give their gifts in a way where they are well-received.  And meanwhile those who would gladly and thankfully accept the gift are somehow... almost magically.. not anywhere to be seen and continue to languish in their suffering.

Yes- it is a circular pattern as you say.  But no more nor less than the circular pattern of choosing to suffer, failing to achieve the desired result or learning, and then choosing to suffer even more in hopes that this will provide the answer.

Again, just look around us.  I feel pretty sure you can sense this energy where there are those that are upholding certain "ideals" and a certain "way to do things" even though it has been shown time and again that those philosophies fail to produce the claimed objective of a fundamentally happy society.

No matter how bad it might get, this philosophy simply continues to "double down" and somehow manages to call that "faith".  That we must continually strive to find the "faith to suffer" is the chant of the war drums, to my perspective.

Maybe I am being too presumptive here, but I feel so sure that you know what kind of philosophies and supporting energies I am referring to here, even though we may disagree as to the naming.  Well, as above so below.  What we see here is the physical reflection of... what... process occurring in the spiritual realms?  Something wholesome, healthy, and of benefit to All... or something different?

By the way, as to the harvest of fear and trauma this planet offers to negatively oriented beings, I certainly agree that this is a sad, unfortunate situation.

And- it is not at all necessary in order to achieve the desired result.  From this here perspective- whatever you may wish to label it -it is a sad situation precisely because so many otherwise brilliant souls choose to "go along" with this crazy scheme, and keep agreeing to it and justifying it to each other using various philosophies.  And if one of us ever tries to break free, they may only succeed at great personal cost to themselves, and to the great benefit of beings who feed on the energy of suffering.

It's the reason that the Brothers and Sisters of Sorrow folks have joined in with this mess to make small offerings of love in the face of darkness.  And this requires intense polarization, and that brings one closer to a place where this makes sense: "Learning to love under all possible circumstances is indeed the goal which each of you seeks."

Yes, and "The desire to serve must be distorted towards a great deal of purity of mind and what you may call foolhardiness or bravery, depending upon your distortion complex judgment."

I must admit, my "distortion complex judgement" appears biased to calling it foolhardiness.  But that doesn't mean I don't seek to serve others, or the Creator in a positive fashion.  That doesn't mean I am on a service-to-self path.

Also, even though, personally, cocaine has no effect on me, I get your point about cheap thrills.  But I think I'm referring to something more interesting than that.  Viz.: the experience of intense polarization offers a wanderer in this density a tiny taste of what a more expanded self used to feel like back in the old days, if you will.  And that can give a boost to morale of the highest order, I would aver.

Well I don't know what that feels like in my body.  All I can ever remembering feeling is pain.  And an eternal promise that somehow, this is all very necessary, and will be deemed as having been very worth it, in the end.

[redchartreuse]

What is actually learned from easy love? Everything is perfect or even mostly, and you can love others... well that's good because You are love so that makes perfect sense

For a lesson to be learned, it must neither be too easy, nor too hard.  I understand that growth results from resistance, in this case suffering.  But what I am attempting to discuss here is the possibility that maybe there is too much of it going on here in this particular environment.

If we were making a soup, and suffering were the salt, we have a damn salty soup here.  Adding more salt seems... absurd.

But its hard, life is tough the world is cruel and people are so heartless. Now prove to me/you(we are one) you are love god that's a whole lot harder isn't it. Especially when the ones you are trying to love just hurt you over and over with increasing cruelty.

Yes, sure it is hard.  And, once accomplished, perhaps something to be proud of and take a picture for one's spiritual mantle, so to speak.  But so is climbing Mt. Everest.  That doesn't mean that we should all climb the mountain, or that those of us who made some choice in the past (perhaps without all the pertinent information or necessary training or previous experience) shouldn't reconsider our previous choice, if it looks like we may not survive the trek, or that we likely aren't going to get out of the journey what we once thought we were going to get.

The question here, as relates back to preincarnative choices is:  So can we choose differently now?  Can we really choose differently?  Because it seems like a really hard thing to do.  Which is what causes me to question the kind of "programming" that might be lurking somewhere back in the recesses of my subconscious, or even in the collective subconscious.

Did you still manage to be love or did you turn dark. Wake up from that life, stayed loved, gave respite with your patent enduring love.
You grew. The love we are is now tested. Maybe time for a different lesson, or we go into a less veiled realm for a while to love in unveiled nuance.

Turned dark? well I am sure you are glad to be resting on space/time now, with all your other identities your soul has been, I swear we are such good company, it's good to be home, you are unveiled and see how you could have made it through, and stayed of love. It's ok we can focus now on being ship captains for 50 years till we run through all the stuff we want to encounter incarnated in that space/time.

Right, exactly.  So I have already proven that I can keep my heart open- even if only a sliver- despite all these experiences and lessons.  Is that enough for the universe?  Or must I continually re-prove myself.  And if so, to whom must I need proving?

It isn't a mystery, we are one eternal being in infinity. Why would trying to increase our capacity for love not seem like exactly what we would do. At least for a while.

I think you may be missing what I am trying to say here.  Of course we would try to to that!  I am not saying there is anything wrong or weird or strange or unusual about trying to increase our capacity for love.

What I am saying is that perhaps our methodology is faulty.  We do not appear to be accomplishing what we set out to do.  At least not the majority of us.  Maybe we should consider other methods?

There is no shame in admitting that our experiment has failed.  Admitting to failure is what makes a good scientist.  Maybe a little of what's good for the scientist is also good for the soul.

We actually are all one. Lucifer means light bringer not because the energy is gentle and chill, it brings catalyst that affords the opportunity for growth, expansion, and increasing intensity and depth of light

But without the concomitant feeling of being loved, of being welcome, of being protected, of being cared for, this type of light produces... what?  What is its fruit? I think we already all know the answer, yes?

Have you met people who have struggled like crazy through life really endured the s*** but stays gentle, tolerant, loving and compassionate? They are amazing.

Sure, they are amazing!  These types of characters also make great fodder for blockbuster Hollywood movies.  But maybe we shouldn't be so amazed anymore since there are so many examples of those kinds of people...?  Why do we need to keep watching the same formulaic Hollywood story over and over again?  Telling the same story over and over again, yet changing the characters and the costumes and the settings, does not really create that same "amazing" feeling as before.  Yet we keep coming back for more.

Ever met a person who has been handed everything but is selfish, lacks empathy, can't really love people only use them for what they provide? Do you think a soul with eternity on it's hand isn't going to want to take the parts it has discovered of itself that are prone to being the entitled being and try to over many lives help them to be a bit more like the compassionate being.

Well, no.  I've met a lot of people who are accused of being that, but when we look just a bit deeper we would invariably find that they haven't really been "handed everything."

I've been accused of being that.  I'm a handsome, white, male, of higher-than-average intelligence, college educated, came from an upper middle class family with two parents who stayed married, and who always made sure I had adequate food, water, shelter, etc.  So that means I have been "handed everything" right?

Little does anybody know that I was born with a physical deformity in my spine- right at the level of my heart- which has been not only a great source of pain throughout my body, but has prevented me from engaging in many social activities that revolve around intense physical activity.  More than this, is has been a great source of fear since I was diagnosed with this condition as a young child, and basically told there was "nothing we can do about it" except maybe have back surgery some time down the road.

What is more- shortly after my being born, my mother suffered from post-partum depression.  This was further exacerbated by living in a crude, backward, society that barely realized the condition, much less knew of a cure. So I failed to create a strong emotional bond with my mother during this critical period in my development.  As a result, I have a very difficult time forming emotional bonds with anybody, and when I do, they tend to be heavily "tested" by betrayal and abandonment.

But if you look at me on the surface, seems I've been "handed everything" right?  It's an illusion.   Perhaps if people weren't so busy competing amongst themselves to see "who is suffering the most" we could all stop, take a good look around, and realize OK enough is enough.

The soul is love but it isn't tested and developed of depth and perfection. The veil and these incarnations develop the soul. Like a muscle. we all have muscles. But each isn't as strong or flexible. Of course that is only an analogy and maybe a bad one but a soul exists in time exploring infinite things and experiences creates more depth, nuance, more capacity to love. Better more deeper experiences.

The analogy is fine.  But are you willing to stick with it if it doesn't fully support your point?

The veil and these incarnations- what with all the "free will" and concomitant suffering- were intended to develop the soul.  According to Ra, our Solar Logos, having observed the outcomes of a number of creations from other Logoi, made a decision to drastically change the fundamental pattern used in the Creation at large (i.e. the galaxy, and perhaps beyond).  The idea was to "speed up" the evolution of souls, although we never learned from Ra *why* our Solar Logos wanted to "speed up" a process that has all of eternity to complete.

Anyhow, the outcomes of this has been nuclear war, the destruction of two planets, failed harvests, and untold abuse and suffering of souls by other souls.  Oh and there was one harvest of a very loving, but not very wise, society which post-graduation responded in a naive way to a call from beings on a nearby planet, and went there with the best of intentions, only to find some very sad and unfortunate unintended consequences as a result.

What if... the Solar Logos has actually changed its mind?  Or what if it has called an end to this particular experiment?  Yet... due to "free will" here we are recreating the same patterns over and over again, thinking this is what we are "supposed" to be doing?

What if..?? That's all I'm asking here.

The soul and silence can really help understanding this.

I have asked.  My soul tells me that our suffering will continue, each of us on an individual basis, until we summon the power to make a call for it to end.  Until we choose differently.  My soul tells me that "learning to love" means also loving my human- my physical/emotional/mental complex- which means being kind to it, and not subjecting it to tortuous circumstances anymore.

And then there is this other voice.  It tells me that I must continue suffering, or risk "missing the point".  That the reason I feel pain in my body, or get mistreated by others, is because "I" have done something in the past and now must "suffer the consequences".  And there are plenty of channeled sources that appear to be quite supportive of this other voice.  But I note that they all seem to be hailing from somewhere in 4D....?

Here's the thing.  The realization.  At least for me.  My physical/emotional/mental body complex... is innocent.   It is an entity in its own right, and with its own sub-entities.  And they didn't do anything to "deserve" additional suffering, outside of that which naturally occurs from simply attempting to exist in a physical world.

It's hard enough existing in a physical world- where other forms of life are continually striving to overtake your own.  There is enough suffering "baked into" the basic pattern for physical life already for souls to "learn how to love" and whatever else they may be seeking through incarnation.

[Minyatur]

The question here, as relates back to preincarnative choices is:  So can we choose differently now?  Can we really choose differently?  Because it seems like a really hard thing to do.  Which is what causes me to question the kind of "programming" that might be lurking somewhere back in the recesses of my subconscious, or even in the collective subconscious.

It is totally possible but requires the aspects of your free will that made these choices to transform, else wouldn't you just move back to wanting the same still?

There's many instances where we want to quit something to become glad we didn't, it'd be a real shame if any moment's state of mind could wipe everything out on a whim without consideration to every aspect of the self that may desire the current moment. I'd be sad if I couldn't be my current age self just because my 5 years old self could've wanted to vanish from here because that year's Christmas vacations where over and they were really fun. Well the you that transcends beyond this experience is a bit like that.

So I have already proven that I can keep my heart open- even if only a sliver- despite all these experiences and lessons.  Is that enough for the universe?  Or must I continually re-prove myself.  And if so, to whom must I need proving?

Are you so sure that the Universe wants you to prove something to it? I believe there is really nothing more than an exploration of one's own free will. In this, even the Universe is your tool toward that end and not something that stands above you. I'm not belittling the Universe, it's kinda just the part of us that remains aware to these facts.

You could see the first hardship of this experience as a strong lack of knowledge of your own self foremost. This density is centered upon self-realization.

What I am saying is that perhaps our methodology is faulty.  We do not appear to be accomplishing what we set out to do.  At least not the majority of us.  Maybe we should consider other methods?

There is no shame in admitting that our experiment has failed.  Admitting to failure is what makes a good scientist.  Maybe a little of what's good for the scientist is also good for the soul.

The material states that the purpose of veiled 3D experience is to offer more quality and variety of experiences to the Creator in the experience of Itself.

Things are not there so you prove yourself, but instead so you satisfy yourself. To understand this though, you need to understand where you come from and where you're going, just as why and how this is so.

Ask your soul if that all is well is an understatement.

[redchartreuse]

It is totally possible but requires the aspects of your free will that made these choices to transform, else wouldn't you just move back to wanting the same still?

Yes!  Exactly!  

The soul... it is growing/learning, too.  It decides:  OK I am going to go have an incarnation.  I'm gonna pack my bags with this and that.  I am going to make these "preincarnative choices" to suffer in such and such way, so that I can learn to be more loving, or whatever such qualities the soul may choose.

Then it goes and has its life.  All the while, it is gathering information from its incarnation.  Uh-huh, yes this worked out as planned.  And that DID NOT work out as planned.  Oh yes, THAT was a happy surprise.  And THAT was an unfortunately unintended consequence.  Upon further review, and hopefully the gaining of some wisdom, the soul may decide to "play again".. but with a different set of parameters.  

If it is choosing essentially the same thing over and over again, while expecting a different result, then perhaps the soul has gone "crazy".  Perhaps it has become addicted to suffering.  Perhaps it has been caught up in some sort of cosmic "cult" of suffering.  Perhaps it has simply become lost, or misguided.

What then?

Just like how a parent may come to learn that their particular parenting philosophy didn't turn out to be the best for their child, perhaps this soul philosophy of "accelerated growth through intense suffering" needs to be re-examined in much the same way that many people today still beat their children "for their own good."

We might imagine a community of souls that adheres to this particular parenting philosophy.  They all support each other in it.  All of their teachers, elders, and guides nod and smile permissively when they learn of the behavior.  Oh sure- they know there are other philosophies out there, but they KNOW that this one is the right one.  They FEEL it in their heart of hearts!  They only want the best for their children, and love them dearly.  Right?

Again, as above, so below.  We need not run the danger of getting too heady with speculation about the soul's environment.  We may make reasonable inferences based upon what we see here around us in the physical world, based on every day interactions with our friends and family, and especially from what we see being played out on television and movie screens.

There's many instances where we want to quit something to become glad we didn't

And at least as many where we were glad that we found the courage to walk away from something that was destined to turn out poorly for all involved.  Or just a big waste of time.  Or look!  They brought lemonade!  Thanks!  I'll just stash that here between the lemonade and... the ... lemonade.

Can I get an iced tea?

Well the you that transcends beyond this experience is a bit like that.

Right!  

So there is the "me" in 4D that is traversing a dualistic environment, having 3D incarnations while perpetually at a "choice point" to spiral off to the left or to spiral off to the right, gaining or shedding polarity as I go. This 4D realm is infinite... it goes on forever.  There will always be some "lighter light" or some "darker dark" to be experienced, to infinity.

Then there is the "me" in 5D which is, in a sense, created at the moment that my consciousness achieves sufficient polarity to leave one infinity, and enter into another, larger infinity.  

Then there is the "me" in 6D who sees that there is only one spiral, spiraling.  What is changing is the perspective of the 6D entity, whether it is looking down at the spiral from above, or up at the spiral from below.  It sees all paths as one.  Another, larger infinity.

Then there is the "me" in 7D, which experiences itself as the spiral, or the path itself.  Another, larger infinity.

Are you so sure that the Universe wants you to prove something to it?

Well no, I'm not so sure.  However I keep encountering philosophies which appear to suggest very strongly that this is the case, even if on the surface they purport to be saying the exact opposite.

To my perception, as faulty as it may be, it seems as if these particular philosophies are emanating from sources in 4D.  Whereas sources from 5D or 6D tend to promote philosophies of a different variety.

I believe there is really nothing more than an exploration of one's own free will.

But if one explores free will to the point where the exercising of such almost invariably leads to horrific unintended consequences... then what?  What comes next?

This density is centered upon self-realization.

Well again, if this is the case, then this particular exploration does not appear to be achieving the stated objective.

The material states that the purpose of veiled 3D experience is to offer more quality and variety of experiences to the Creator in the experience of Itself.

... and for the specific purpose of "speeding up" the evolution of souls, according to the intent of the Solar Logos.

The Creator (the Galactic Logos) has an infinity of infinities to choose from.  Ultimately, one might presume that, to such a being, it is clearly seen that suffering is merely suffering.   Dressing it up in different costumes, and torturing itself unnecessarily is certainly... and shall forever remain to be... a choice.  But that doesn't make it a wise, or a fruitful choice.

But it is a choice.  Not a requirement.

Things are not there so you prove yourself, but instead so you satisfy yourself. To understand this though, you need to understand where you come from and where you're going, just as why and how this is so.

What I am saying is that continuing to suffer in certain ways, while continually watching others suffer in even greater ways, is not satisfying to me.  And if it is satisfying to my soul, then I am concerned for its well-being and must make an appeal to some higher authority in the matter.

I am well-prepared to continue to learn how to love, how to forgive, and how to be more empathic and compassionate without all the accoutrements of chronic physical pain, or neverending emotional dramas in my relationships.  As I have stated before, the fruit of this experience has been fear, sadness, and anger, and fodder for beings that I no longer care to support.  The so-called "plan" has not worked out as intended.  

So now I would like to choose a different one.  

I am fairly aware of who I am and why I came to be here.  Some may have thought me foolhardy, and others thought me brave, but I came anyway.  And I've seen all our plans dashed upon the rocks again and again, only to be told to pick up the pieces and carry on... that we were almost there!  If we would just carry this burden of suffering for just a while longer, then all will truly be well.

It's always right around the corner, isn't it?  Kind of like Christmas these days. ;-)

Ask your soul if that all is well is an understatement.

From the soul's perspective, I am not so sure. Some part of it appears to be so transfixed to engaging in a kind of "4D battle" that it would appear deaf to my calls for relief from the situation. Another part of it seems to be waiting... perhaps for me to choose to quit playing along with this whole unnecessary suffering thing.

Sure, from the grandest perspective, all is well when you have an infinity of infinities to choose from.  But that's not the game that's being played here.  We keep being told that we have free will, and that we have chosen to suffer.  But we do not get to reap the emotional bounty from our suffering- that is left to sustain others whom we have been made to serve.  

It's kind of like burning coal, but with emotional energy.  Yes, perhaps we are doing this willingly, but also perhaps quite unwittingly.

And so sure... maybe we agreed to this on one level of the game.  But how can we ever get to another level, if we keep agreeing to it?

[Minyatur]

To my perception, as faulty as it may be, it seems as if these particular philosophies are emanating from sources in 4D.  Whereas sources from 5D or 6D tend to promote philosophies of a different variety.

Well 4D is somewhat of a wisdom-lacking principle. But it has its place in things, making wisdom somewhat irrelevant in the heart of itself.

But if one explores free will to the point where the exercising of such almost invariably leads to horrific unintended consequences... then what?  What comes next?

Well the law of free will dictates that you will know yourself. There is no actual concept of loss in where the truth of yourself is rooted.

You are that which has nothing to lose, because you are all there is.

This density is centered upon self-realization.

Well again, if this is the case, then this particular exploration does not appear to be achieving the stated objective.

That's the purpose of this density. The veil is there to make the process of this density less straightforward of a monotone path.

The way that I resonate to view my 3D incarnation is a form of shamanic journey, any outcome serves this purpose.

The material states that the purpose of veiled 3D experience is to offer more quality and variety of experiences to the Creator in the experience of Itself.

... and for the specific purpose of "speeding up" the evolution of souls, according to the intent of the Solar Logos.

The Creator (the Galactic Logos) has an infinity of infinities to choose from.  Ultimately, one might presume that, to such a being, it is clearly seen that suffering is merely suffering.   Dressing it up in different costumes, and torturing itself unnecessarily is certainly... and shall forever remain to be... a choice.  But that doesn't make it a wise, or a fruitful choice.

But it is a choice.  Not a requirement.

I'd say it is wise from the standpoint from which the choice is made. The Logos seeks to answer a need.

The "speeding" up to me is nothing like a necessity and more like a desire. The experience here is vivid and even a nightmare can be seen as a thrill once you're really above it. I think the perspective of the Logos is that It knows that those who have moved through It won't regret having been here, they're exactly where they want to be to become what they want to become.

Things are not there so you prove yourself, but instead so you satisfy yourself. To understand this though, you need to understand where you come from and where you're going, just as why and how this is so.

What I am saying is that continuing to suffer in certain ways, while continually watching others suffer in even greater ways, is not satisfying to me.  And if it is satisfying to my soul, then I am concerned for its well-being and must make an appeal to some higher authority in the matter.

I am well-prepared to continue to learn how to love, how to forgive, and how to be more empathic and compassionate without all the accoutrements of chronic physical pain, or neverending emotional dramas in my relationships.  As I have stated before, the fruit of this experience has been fear, sadness, and anger, and fodder for beings that I no longer care to support.  The so-called "plan" has not worked out as intended.  

So now I would like to choose a different one.  

I am fairly aware of who I am and why I came to be here.  Some may have thought me foolhardy, and others thought me brave, but I came anyway.  And I've seen all our plans dashed upon the rocks again and again, only to be told to pick up the pieces and carry on... that we were almost there!  If we would just carry this burden of suffering for just a while longer, then all will truly be well.

It's always right around the corner, isn't it?  Kind of like Christmas these days. ;-)

Tbh, I also feel like being done with pain and I think that's somewhat a thing with wanderers, they need to distill their own focus toward it. Because like you said, in this Universe there'll always be of everything. But then I move to a part of me that doesn't really like the idea of cotton candy everlasting peacefulness, there's a form of dullness to it that is nonsensical.

Ask your soul if that all is well is an understatement.

From the soul's perspective, I am not so sure.  Some part of it appears to be so transfixed to engaging in a kind of "4D battle" that it would appear deaf to my calls for relief from the situation.  Another part of it seems to be waiting... perhaps for me to choose to quit playing along with this whole unnecessary suffering thing.

Sure, from the grandest perspective, all is well when you have an infinity of infinities to choose from.  But that's not the game that's being played here.  We keep being told that we have free will, and that we have chosen to suffer.  But we do not get to reap the emotional bounty from our suffering- that is left to sustain others whom we have been made to serve.  

It's kind of like burning coal, but with emotional energy.  Yes, perhaps we are doing this willingly, but also perhaps quite unwittingly.

And so sure... maybe we agreed to this on one level of the game.  But how can we ever get to another level, if we keep agreeing to it?

I think you made the game and its levels, so you move from one level to another when you realize the limits of your need of a level and see beyond it.

[redchartreuse]

Well 4D is somewhat of a wisdom-lacking principle. But it has its place in things, making wisdom somewhat irrelevant in the heart of itself.

Yes, it does have its place in things. But it also has a tendency to become so self-absorbed in seeking the "heart of itself" that it can become deaf and blind to the larger infinities in which it lives, and moves, and has its being.

If this happens, it can become problematic. Because then portions of 4D may become "cut off" from its higher dimensional sources, and thus find itself in the awkward situation of having to cannibalize itself.

Of course- it doesn't quite perceive the self-cannibalization as such. It sees it more along the lines of, "Oh, well that was an unfortunate result. But I only had the best of intentions. Here... let me try again. I will try even harder next time."

This circular loop... it can and will also go on forever. The only way that a 4D entity can reconnect to a larger infinity is to remember that it exists, and then to decide that it no longer wishes to be caught in an endless loop. In other words, it has to say OK enough is enough. Because otherwise it has the "free will" to continue on- literally forever- in its current state, so should it continue to deem it necessary.

Well the law of free will dictates that you will know yourself. There is no actual concept of loss in where the truth of yourself is rooted.

You are that which has nothing to lose, because you are all there is.

Yes, but those other parts of me... the ones blasted apart in nuclear war... the ones who witnessed the destruction of their planet... the ones who have been brutally and mercilessly beaten, robbed, raped, and abused throughout all of this experience... they do not know themselves. And yet they are a part of "me" in that ultimate sense to which you refer.

In the ultimate sense, nothing is ever lost. But it also can "become lost" in the sense of being caught in an endless loop of self-cannibalization.

The way that I resonate to view my 3D incarnation is a form of shamanic journey, any outcome serves this purpose.

I'm curious to know... is yours a solitary path? Because I found it much easier to resonate to that view before I had a wife and child.

I think the perspective of the Logos is that It knows that those who have moved through It won't regret having been here, they're exactly where they want to be to become what they want to become.

I would tend to agree that appears to be its perspective. But the Solar Logos is also growing, yes? So that means it's perspective has no doubt changed for having had the whole experience. And if it hasn't changed, then what would have been the point of conducting such a radical experiment?

Tbh, I also feel like being done with pain and I think that's somewhat a thing with wanderers, they need to distill their own focus toward it. Because like you said, in this Universe there'll always be of everything.

Well, yes I would tend to agree. It seems that the wanderers came here hoping to make the burden a little lighter... again the idea was that there was too much suffering going on. It had gone too far and the humans were having extreme difficulties ending the programs of suffering, and turning things around for themselves, as was originally planned.

Thus, rather than actually resulting in speeding up the development of consciousness, it was having the actual effect of slowing it down.

At first, many entities of higher consciousness thought they could be of service by telepathically communicating various philosophies to the peoples of earth. But due to the so-called "Law of Confusion" imposed by the Solar Logos, for every philosophy hailing from the higher light- from the larger infinity- needed to be counterbalanced by an equal and opposite philosophy, in order to preserve the ability of the humans to make a "free-will choice" regarding the matter.

Well this seemed to have largely failed.

So then the wanderers... this somewhat ragtag group hailing primarily from 6D was all like... "Hey no problem. We'll just go down there and take some of this burden of suffering off the shoulders of the populace, and that will allow them to finally get a leg up on things and, ultimately, process the remaining unused catalyst."

But those wanderers also bore the risk of "getting caught up in the vibrations" vis a vis taking on too much of the vibrations of suffering, and becoming caught in the trap themselves.

What is the trap? What IF the trap is the philosophy that accelerated growth results from extreme suffering.

Again, just saying what if?

But then I move to a part of me that doesn't really like the idea of cotton candy everlasting peacefulness, there's a form of dullness to it that is nonsensical.

Yes! I definitely feel that I know what you mean. But sit with that energy for a while... why does it appear to be a choice between endless horrific suffering and some sort of eternal candyland existence? Why does it appear to be all or nothing?

Would 60/40 be acceptable? 90/10? 85/15? I think you know the answer... of course it would be acceptable. But for some reason there appears to be this force.. this will.. that is quite persistent in maintaining the "all or nothing" illusion about it.

I think you made the game and its levels, so you move from one level to another when you realize the limits of your need of a level and see beyond it.

But what if, in the process of making the game and its levels, I created an avatar of myself which also came to believe that IT made the game and its levels, and that it was making a game about "learning to love through suffering" when all along- back in the ACTUAL game- that had always been intended as merely one level of the game?

[MangusKhan]

The validity of the veil is something I've been pondering for a long time. I think ultimately it's not better or worse a system. It's called "polarity" for a reason. For every good possibility that didn't previously exist, there is also a bad possibility which balances it.

It's the grandest puppet show in the cosmos, and you even get to play a character!

Are you not entertained?

[Minyatur]

This circular loop... it can and will also go on forever.  The only way that a 4D entity can reconnect to a larger infinity is to remember that it exists, and then to decide that it no longer wishes to be caught in an endless loop.  In other words, it has to say OK enough is enough.  Because otherwise it has the "free will" to continue on- literally forever- in its current state, so should it continue to deem it necessary.

Ya you can create hells for yourself and you're the key to solve them.

Well the law of free will dictates that you will know yourself. There is no actual concept of loss in where the truth of yourself is rooted.

You are that which has nothing to lose, because you are all there is.

Yes, but those other parts of me... the ones blasted apart in nuclear war... the ones who witnessed the destruction of their planet... the ones who have been brutally and mercilessly beaten, robbed, raped, and abused throughout all of this experience... they do not know themselves.  And yet they are a part of "me" in that ultimate sense to which you refer.

In the ultimate sense, nothing is ever lost.  But it also can "become lost" in the sense of being caught in an endless loop of self-cannibalization.

I resonate more to see others as me that is elsewhen-elsewhere, through a path that moves to be there.

If I come to understand that I have always stood where I want for what I wanted, then I become able to recognize this also for myself found in others. The same free will that is transcendant to every and all distortions, or illusionary pattern, of my experience is equally found in myself found in every thing that I am. To understand the value of losing sight of it you need to remember what it is to never lose sight of it, then what may seem unappreciable can become seen as appreciable.

The way that I resonate to view my 3D incarnation is a form of shamanic journey, any outcome serves this purpose.

I'm curious to know... is yours a solitary path?  Because I found it much easier to resonate to that view before I had a wife and child.

I haven't really felt alone, so I wouldn't deem it a solitary path. I am celibate though, if that's what you want to know.

I think this notion mostly came from certain psychedelic experiences I've had that offered a strong contrast to my mind in understanding the effects of the veil of forgetting. It's like jumping into something to lose sight of yourself, to realize yourself through archetypal relationships and find yourself anew. How it is referred to as the density of choice I think is tied with how I view it as a shamanic journey, through experiences you distill aspects of yourself in a way that is not possible if they are not somewhat cut off from your total balance. It's also the reason why 3D works in helping 6D entities balance love and wisdom in a way that propells their growth.

I think the perspective of the Logos is that It knows that those who have moved through It won't regret having been here, they're exactly where they want to be to become what they want to become.

I would tend to agree that appears to be its perspective.  But the Solar Logos is also growing, yes?  So that means it's perspective has no doubt changed for having had the whole experience.  And if it hasn't changed, then what would have been the point of conducting such a radical experiment?

I think the Logos knows itself to answer a need, or a call if you will, that it perceives through timelessness. Like all things it has its honor/duty.

Tbh, I also feel like being done with pain and I think that's somewhat a thing with wanderers, they need to distill their own focus toward it. Because like you said, in this Universe there'll always be of everything.

Well, yes I would tend to agree.  It seems that the wanderers came here hoping to make the burden a little lighter... again the idea was that there was too much suffering going on.  It had gone too far and the humans were having extreme difficulties ending the programs of suffering, and turning things around for themselves, as was originally planned.

Thus, rather than actually resulting in speeding up the development of consciousness, it was having the actual effect of slowing it down.

At first, many entities of higher consciousness thought they could be of service by telepathically communicating various philosophies to the peoples of earth.  But due to the so-called "Law of Confusion" imposed by the Solar Logos, for every philosophy hailing from the higher light- from the larger infinity- needed to be counterbalanced by an equal and opposite philosophy, in order to preserve the ability of the humans to make a "free-will choice" regarding the matter.

Well this seemed to have largely failed.

So then the wanderers... this somewhat ragtag group hailing primarily from 6D was all like... "Hey no problem.  We'll just go down there and take some of this burden of suffering off the shoulders of the populace, and that will allow them to finally get a leg up on things and, ultimately, process the remaining unused catalyst."

But those wanderers also bore the risk of "getting caught up in the vibrations" vis a vis taking on too much of the vibrations of suffering, and becoming caught in the trap themselves.

What is the trap?  What IF the trap is the philosophy that accelerated growth results from extreme suffering.

Again, just saying what if?

I think the point is just to answer a need of variety. It's all tied to unity and the role of each is what they are resonant with.

But then I move to a part of me that doesn't really like the idea of cotton candy everlasting peacefulness, there's a form of dullness to it that is nonsensical.

Yes! I definitely feel that I know what you mean.  But sit with that energy for a while... why does it appear to be a choice between endless horrific suffering and some sort of eternal candyland existence?  Why does it appear to be all or nothing?  

Would 60/40 be acceptable?  90/10?  85/15?  I think you know the answer... of course it would be acceptable.  But for some reason there appears to be this force.. this will.. that is quite persistent in maintaining the "all or nothing" illusion about it.

What's your exact idea of the % of suffering here on Earth?

I get there's a lot of it, but it's not either like most things are in pain at most times. People-wise, people mostly suffer from archetypal relationships they care deeply about, that's their love and they're quite often the ones that think they're right to cling to suffer. One of the lesson I've had is to realize the extent at which we subconsciously resist and avoid release and what will make us feel good. This is not really imposed, but a part of what you want.

I think you made the game and its levels, so you move from one level to another when you realize the limits of your need of a level and see beyond it.

But what if, in the process of making the game and its levels, I created an avatar of myself which also came to believe that IT made the game and its levels, and that it was making a game about "learning to love through suffering" when all along- back in the ACTUAL game- that had always been intended as merely one level of the game?

The game is to realize the Infinity of Yourself and any distortion will at most be an aspect to explore of what you are and can be.

[redchartreuse]

rc,  getting  back to the concept of love  upheld under any circumstance possible as a goal, sounds like a very difficult obligation for sure, if we look at it as an obligation and feel ok so this is what I must attain.  but I,think we can experience unconditional love in any situation,  which can be easy and happy,  or,  when we are in the darkness of night,  since each experience is unique.

Perhaps I am reading too much into the comment and being nitpicky about the wording, but to my read it is one thing to say that we seek to experience love in all situations which we find ourselves, and quite another to say we seek to experience love in all possible situations.

The first is a very lofty, yet seemingly attainable goal. The second sounds good on the surface, but is really more like asking oneself to jump into a bottomless pit of despair.

If we are to learn to love, then we must also love our tiny human self. And that means to not inflict any more suffering upon it, beyond that which would naturally occur in the course of its existence as a physical being.

It's really curious to me, for example, how spiritually-minded people can get so picky about the kinds of foods they put in their body, and the toxins and so forth, but then just keep diving willy-nilly into situations that are not healthy for the emotional or mental bodies.

[redchartreuse]

I haven't really felt alone, so I wouldn't deem it a solitary path. I am celibate though, if that's what you want to know.

Not particularly asking about celibacy specifically, but more if you have a life partner.

For me- it was very lonely and disheartening, to say the least.  And what I was missing from having a committed partner, I attempted to make up for by becoming a part of this or that "spiritual" group, which proved to be even more disheartening.  

All the while there was this "voice" or energy or force tugging at me... telling me that I was doing something really important and that this was my "mission".  It was very insistent that I couldn't really have a life partner, and that especially not, under any circumstances, have a child.

I just mostly went along with this until I finally started paying closer attention to what the "little me" wanted- what my human wanted- and realizing that this wasn't at all in alignment with the agenda that I was attempting to impose upon it, at the direction of this other "voice".  That's when I really started to question the whole scheme.  Tbh, the whole thing just seemed to feel too "churchy" to me... this whole idea of forcing myself to do things against my own will, in order that I may suffer and "make sacrifices" for the greater good.  

Well finally I found (was "permitted" to find?) a relatively short while after taking the first steps to become a shaman, ironically enough.  We are part of the same soul group, or cluster, or squadron, or whatever you wanna call it.  

This is when I finally figured out how this whole scheme is accomplished.  Because before, when the extra catalyst I was agreeing to process "on behalf of others" would get too overwhelming, I could at least beg and plead for a reprieve.  Then, after resting up, I could once again re-engage with the program of taking on extra suffering for others feeling somewhat refreshed.

Well now what I've found that, no sooner do I get a break from the catalyst then.. BOOM! There it appears in her.  And now that we have a son, if we both manage to get ourselves re-balanced simultaneously, then BOOM! It pops up in him.

So nowadays, despite living what- to all outer estimations- appears to be a pretty idyllic lifestyle, I basically get presented with the same "choice" every day.  I can either suffer through physical pain, or through emotional pain.  Or I can still get a "break" but then I must witness somebody I love who is very close to me, begin to get overwhelmed by the self-same catalyst.

What's your exact idea of the % of suffering here on Earth?

I get there's a lot of it, but it's not either like most things are in pain at most times. People-wise, people mostly suffer from archetypal relationships they care deeply about, that's their love and they're quite often the ones that think they're right to cling to suffer. One of the lesson I've had is to realize the extent at which we subconsciously resist and avoid release and what will make us feel good. This is not really imposed, but a part of what you want.

I think it is close to 100% when you take into account what I've said above, that this "extra helping of suffering" is sort of passed around the table, creating the illusion of it being shared.  Whereas in reality, there is only one being there, passing the suffering back and forth to different parts of itself.

This is exactly how physical pain manifests in my body.  So I can recognize that pattern very well.   For example, months will go by where my left lower back is in severe pain.  I can't get comfortable.  Can't hardly get relief from seeing practitioners.  Can't sleep.  Can't meditate.

Then one day... BOOM!  Pain in the left lower back is gone.  But then, usually within the next 24 hours, it pops up somewhere else.  Now it's in my neck for a few months.   Now my pelvis.  And so on.

So when you are asking about percents, it sort of depends whether we are looking at a level where there are multiple parts, or whether a level of a larger whole.

But the percents may be taking us off topic because I didn't mean to talk about percents of the population suffering.  What I was trying to say was more about why, internally, it often seems like we are given the "choice" of either existing in an eternal airy-fairy, pumpkin spice and everything nice sort of heavenly (but very boring) existence, or we can choose to come here to terrify ourselves in hopes we will find it exhilarating... or spiritually fruitful... or whatever.

What I was trying to say was... wouldn't it be possible for souls to grow spiritually without having the suffering dialed up to the max?  And in fact, if the purpose of the Logos is to "speed up" spiritual growth, then, unless this happens to be the most naive Solar Logos in the entire universe, one might reasonably assume that the Solar Logos understands that there is a certain ratio of suffering to joy that is going to produce the "ideal" result, and that this ratio is probably not to be found at the extreme end of the spectrum.

Again, this can all get very heady, but we just need to look around us.  Look at the results.  Look at the fruit.

Look at all the extremism and blind adherence to certain ideals, without really understanding on a deep level what it means.  Time and again, day after day, billions of times a day, human beings all across the planet seem to be conveniently "forgetting" that, more is not always better.  

Just like medicine- if you take too small of a dose, nothing happens.  And if you take too big of a dose, game over.

I think it need not take the consciousness of a 6D star being for an entity to be able to hold this little chunk of wisdom firmly in its field.

A regular person living their regular life with their regular daily round of activities, should be able to discern, at least after several decades of experience, that perpetually digging in their heels, doubling down on their beliefs, and becoming even more extreme, doesn't actually lead them where they want to be.

[Glow]

For me- it was very lonely and disheartening, to say the least.  And what I was missing from having a committed partner, I attempted to make up for by becoming a part of this or that "spiritual" group, which proved to be even more disheartening.  

All the while there was this "voice" or energy or force tugging at me... telling me that I was doing something really important and that this was my "mission".  It was very insistent that I couldn't really have a life partner, and that especially not, under any circumstances, have a child.

I just mostly went along with this until I finally started paying closer attention to what the "little me" wanted- what my human wanted- and realizing that this wasn't at all in alignment with the agenda that I was attempting to impose upon it, at the direction of this other "voice".  That's when I really started to question the whole scheme.  Tbh, the whole thing just seemed to feel too "churchy" to me... this whole idea of forcing myself to do things against my own will, in order that I may suffer and "make sacrifices" for the greater good.  

Well finally I found (was "permitted" to find?) a relatively short while after taking the first steps to become a shaman, ironically enough.  We are part of the same soul group, or cluster, or squadron, or whatever you wanna call it.  

This is when I finally figured out how this whole scheme is accomplished.  Because before, when the extra catalyst I was agreeing to process "on behalf of others" would get too overwhelming, I could at least beg and plead for a reprieve.  Then, after resting up, I could once again re-engage with the program of taking on extra suffering for others feeling somewhat refreshed.

Well now what I've found that, no sooner do I get a break from the catalyst then.. BOOM! There it appears in her.  And now that we have a son, if we both manage to get ourselves re-balanced simultaneously, then BOOM! It pops up in him.

So nowadays, despite living what- to all outer estimations- appears to be a pretty idyllic lifestyle, I basically get presented with the same "choice" every day.  I can either suffer through physical pain, or through emotional pain.  Or I can still get a "break" but then I must witness somebody I love who is very close to me, begin to get overwhelmed by the self-same catalyst.

See that may have been why your soul was not wanting you to have a child. Lots of us here are mopping up Karma.

When you have a child they start carrying out some of the karma you were presented with. If you want to ease the burden of those who also carry the same karmic burden (wife and child it seems) start healing. By that I mean don't fight the system or god or whom ever you blame for this perceived injustice just go inward find the wounds and heal. You speak of a shamanic background so you have the tools.

[redchartreuse]

See that may have been why your soul was not wanting you to have a child.

Well, yes.  Except that I would add it's also like a "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" thing.   It did not "want" me to have a child, because that would present a severe obstacle to getting me to continue to accept its crazy "plan".

I've found the programming runs very deep, friend.  Try to just be with it a while, and look past the little spiritual quips and taglines we have all been taught to respond with when these types of questions come up.

I am supposedly here to learn how to love.  But not by having a committed partner and child.  No... by taking on the "karma" of strangers I don't know who steadfastly refuse to process it on their own behalf.

And how, exactly, can one process another's "karma"... we cannot learn for others.  It is theirs and theirs alone to process.  Yes, with a little help from their friends and family, but not where their friends and family are doing their homework for them.  Nobody learns like that.

From this vantage point- Everything else is just a scam.  A fear-based delay tactic.  And a very successful one at that.
 

Lots of us here are mopping up Karma.

Mmhmm.  Yes, that's what we have been told.  

But upon closer examination, we just appear to be running endless loops of somebody else's karma, and thereby depriving them of a true opportunity to process it for themselves.  See- if we were really "mopping it up" then the mopping would come to an end.  In this case, for every cup of somebody else's karma we mop up, we are simply "rewarded" with a gallon more.  We get another "gold star" to put on our crown and a nice pat on the back.  Then we are told to "get back out there" since there is so much important work to do.  Saving the world and all that.

Who is running this so-called "spiritual" program anyway?  Elon Musk?  Bezos?   Feels like a really "alpha male" sort of dominating energy to me... but of course the naming does not really matter, and turns out to be just another distraction.

We were sold on this plan to shoulder the karmic burden of others for a relatively short while and then they were supposed to take over the reigns of their own development again.  What has actually happened is that, not only has the "mopping up" not occurred, but there is a bigger mess than ever before.

Just look around at the people in your own life.  See anybody who has spent the last 30-40 years steadfastly avoiding the learning of the very obvious lesson that is being presented to them over and over again?  Anybody who seems to appear very much "stuck" somewhere circa mid-1980's?

So has the plan worked?  Has the service intended been rendered?  Or has it just resulted in yet another heap of "unintended consequences" and in people being worse off than they were before?

When you have a child they start carrying out some of the karma you were presented with.

Yes.  And when I was a child, I pretty much was immediately made to start shouldering the burden of unprocessed catalyst from my parents.   Some many decades later, they each have some core issues that they have basically refused to take even one step toward resolving.  The only thing that has changed is that they are now older, and their brains are long past the peak of plasticity that permits human beings to change.  Mission failed.

And now- what I have not been able to process falls to my own child...?  No, I will not stand for it.  And the energy that says NO to that is love.

So then, answer me this riddle.  If, in having a child, I have learned to be more loving, more compassionate, and so on... then WHY would this have been so strictly forbidden by the "program"?

If you want to ease the burden of those who also carry the same karmic burden (wife and child it seems) start healing. By that I mean don't fight the system or god or whom ever you blame for this perceived injustice just go inward find the wounds and heal.

My friend, I do not think you have grasped the gravity of the situation.  My wife isn't the first I've met from my group, just the first I've attempted a committed relationship with.

The others... many of them have fallen.  Some of them into the sinkhole, others into a false light path.  Some of them have died in undignified ways.  Some have suffered even worse fates.

We have suffered heavy casualties over here.  Perhaps other groups have fared better... I wouldn't really know.

What I do know is that each time one of them falls, some of their "extra helping of suffering" falls upon my shoulders, in addition to whatever I have already taken on personally.  

It has now progressed to the point of absurdity where I am finding myself literally picking up feces that is somebody else's responsibility every day.  They just sit there and watch, doing nothing.  I brought it up one time, and they just denied it was their responsibility.

So now I either clean up after their s***, or smell it wafting in every time I sit down to a meal.

Enough is enough.

You speak of a shamanic background so you have the tools.

While I appreciate your vote of confidence, what actually happened with that shaman is that he turned out to be shady, and I ended up infected with a so-called "protective spirit" that caused me nothing but additional pain as it threw its own set of "demands" upon me.  I finally got free from it after about 7 years, so that was fun.

Really helped me to learn to be more loving, and all that.  ;-)  I jest.

But actually it did help me... that was one of the big turning points where I was able to connect with something higher that was willing to enjoin me in putting an end to the incessant torture of an innocent human being (little me) in the name of "love and compassion".

[Minyatur]

Sorry for the late reply, never felt right to and I dove a bit into self-contemplation lately.

I think the crux of what I've been wanting to say is to find to accept both sides of every coin. It is easy to go off track mentally in a nightmarish perception of everything. Working opposites somewhat allows the mind to find balance in its thoughts. For me that has been the great peace bringer, as I can have got stuck in certain perceptions where I would see a side of things and finding to shift my view, even for an instant, would offer a kind of release to an energy that was building up. This is also what my inner voice leads me toward, it's never yin or yang but yin and yang and there is a unity in that.

Attempting to touch the essence of free will is another thing that can bring peace to me. Wordly pain is a really hard thing to distill, and if you reject that it is, then it leads unto a paradoxical path with no end to itself. Because you think that it shouldn't be, while truth is that it is. If instead you are able to shift to that everything that suffers can have willed it to be so, then you are able to connect with deeper portions of them that are in harmony with this fate, and same can be done with yourself. To understand the role and need of the Earth, you need to view it within its context, that is Eternity.

In your messages, you tend to view things as very separate. Even if it is all One, there's this part and that part, higher you and little you. I don't think these things are as separate as they seem and that finding to unify them is a great healer.

I don't know your familial situation, but if the energy has to move through each of you then the best remains to not hold on to it within yourself. This was one of my lessons, that our role is often to allow the energy to move through us and so long we keep it inside ourselves it builds a charge.

Sometimes what can be helpful with free will is asking the right questions. How does the moment serve you? Why did I have need of this? Why did this person have need of that? And so on.

[redchartreuse]

Sorry for the late reply, never felt right to and I dove a bit into self-contemplation lately.

No worries!  I have been doing more than complaining on forums as well.

In fact-  I've been putting this whole discussion to the test.  I have to say, I have never seen such a swift in the state of affairs since I've begun rooting these philosophies out of my consciousness.  It leaves me feeling even more confident that this is a fruitful path, at least for me.  Over the last few weeks since embracing a different philosophy:

1.  Physical pain is down quite considerably, and not just in my body but in that of others I know who are "sharing" this pattern.  Therapeutic sessions with practitioners are going deeper, and the results are staying longer.  Actually having pain-free days.

2.  Emotionally feel a lot more balanced.  No longer receiving the same triggers or "catalyst" once or several times an hour.  People around me no longer start bouncing off the walls the moment I feel some peace internally.

3.  Two channeled sources (other than Q'uo) that I regularly follow have addressed this very topic in recent conversations, and also appear to broadly agree with what I am saying here.  I did not write in to either of the channels asking about this... seems to have arisen "independently".

4.  Two different "world leaders" who embody this particular type of overbearing and bullying energy I keep referring to have made moves basically admitting that they are not actually an "all-powerful" being that just gets to dominate and lord over everybody else, in pursuit of whatever they feel in their "heart of hearts" is right.  (If it feels so "right" how could it be wrong?)

5.  Several major science, tech, medical breakthroughs have been published.  I tend to use this as a barometer for overall level of vibrations.

Could some or all of it be a mere coincidence?  I suppose anything is possible.  But at this point I don't intend to return to those old philosophies to give it a test, although I suppose I will always have that "option" should I decide to choose it again.

I'd highly recommend to others giving it a try.  Maybe give it a whirl for a week and report the results back here:  I no longer require suffering in order to learn to love.