In regards to eating meat

[Meerie]

I am glad you share my view on obsession. It states that it seems to be coming from the mind mainly... I just do not understand how you think that listening to your body when considering what to eat can be viewed as compulsive?
for example when I considered going vegetarian some time ago, it was a decision coming from my mind. A thought. Rational if you will.
I found that it is not what my body wants and I changed it.
If you are hungry is the hunger in your mind or is it a tiny feeling in your stomach?
Doesn't your stomach react when you see a yummy dish? IS the decision to eat it then coming from your mind? or your tummy?
And of course it will taste delicious if you like it! what is wrong with that?
And believe me, if I had the digestive probelms you mentioned when eating meat, I would be the first person to stop eating it. This is not a question of discipline, it is just ... common sense.

[BrownEye]

Considering that the stomach can be tricked by your taste buds, and your taste buds rely on what your brain "thinks" it is, then yes there is a definite disconnect.

Many quit vegetables because of stomach upset. What they don't seem to understand is that they were experiencing a detox or cleanse.

Most of my extended family members have serious gastric issues now. The slightest thing screws up their stomach. They are in a downward spiral, and I doubt they will come out of it. Largely because of their "belief". I had that issue myself, but overcame it. Most likely I only added another 20 years to my life. Now once I get moved I will be in a position to do juice fasts. That should extend my life and functionality even more.

All you need to do is look at the fast food industry. They spend large amounts of money on laboratories to come up with synthetic tastes to trick the brain into thinking unassimilable junk is food. You should start seeing the fast food museums popping up in all sorts of places now. Burgers that have been saved for years without any real breakdown. A quick way to look at what happens in your intestines is to put food up on the shelf and check it after a few months. The food that deteriorates the most or disappears, digests the easiest, and assimilates using the least amount of energy. I'm sure you can guess what the steak will look like even in a year. A rock. That is a pretty simple way to see it.

I changed for health reasons, but I have noticed huge changes in my mental state as a result. The obvious change is empathy, compassion, and awareness. But I also notice a difference in intellect. I have spent a bit of time debating many issues on other forums and have noticed that most do not think for themself. They rely on thought that has already been organized for them. Debates are promoting an idea of someone elses, rather than bringing an original idea from within themself. Mass conformity and the hive mind or something along those lines. Very predictable outcome.

I am kind of wandering the net looking for others that have deeper perceptions of what is right in front of us.

[transiten]

Wel in this 3D dimension we have to contend with balancing the opposites and "containing the opposites" within our own psyche, the light and the dark as CG Jung stated. that's the process of individuation and we will never come to singularity here in our 3D existence but try to find the Love that is in accepting these opposites playing out.

I'm mainly lactovegetarian but eat fish sometimes and shrimps regularly and on occasion lamb from freeranging animals and elk....but i feel more and more like qutting meat altogether. What do you think of Quorn that is a industrial produced mushroom? I eat this a lot.

Monica:exclamation:
One final thought concerning the Inuites and the Scandinavian Laponians and others pple living the same lifestyle: Are they on a lower level of consciousness and spiritual development because of their lifestyle eating meat from seal and rheindeer? Did they choose to reincarnate there to learn some lesson different from the rest of us? esp. from those living on paradise islands where fruit and nuts are hanging from the trees?

Please adress this crucial question that i've been asking so many times. Should they change their lifestyle and move to a warmer place Pun intended

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[Meerie]

Considering that the stomach can be tricked by your taste buds, and your taste buds rely on what your brain "thinks" it is, then yes there is a definite disconnect.

You can be tricked of course. I think this definitely applies to everyone who reads so much about what foods are good and what bad. If you chose to believe what you read, then I agree with you, as soon as you "think" something is bad for you you really should not eat it because then it will be bad for you anyway. It is your belief that matters a great deal.
Some years ago they demonized coffee here, now you read that it can actually be good for liver /gall issues. Maybe the coffee industry paid for a study showing the supposed benefits of the beverage? you never know who is behind these studies.
I just believe that not all foods are good for everyone. Some people cannot digest meat, others have troubles with the fructose in fruit, others are sensitive to certain grains. The body will show you what is good for you, by its reactions.

Most of my extended family members have serious gastric issues now. The slightest thing screws up their stomach.

This seems to be a family issue you have here and congrats on you for overcoming your gastric troubles, by eliminating meat.

All you need to do is look at the fast food industry. They spend large amounts of money on laboratories to come up with synthetic tastes to trick the brain into thinking unassimilable junk is food.

I have the impression this is even worse in the US than here. ALthough there are so many convenience products offered in the supermarkets here too. I mostly cook using fresh ingredients. I never buy ready-made pizza or "TV dinners" (in fact no one of my family does)

I just read about the 122 year old french woman Jeanne Calment. THey say she smoked until the end, liked port wine and ate around 1kg of chocolate a week. This would be like 10 bars of chocolate LOL

[Ali Quadir]

Yes, common misconception if you don't consume those things you won't actually live longer...
It'll just seem longer. :-/

[BrownEye]

I'm mainly lactovegetarian but eat fish sometimes and shrimps regularly and on occasion lamb from freeranging animals and elk....but i feel more and more like qutting meat altogether. What do you think of Quorn that is a industrial produced mushroom? I eat this a lot.

Monica:exclamation:
One final thought concerning the Inuites and the Scandinavian Laponians and others pple living the same lifestyle: Are they on a lower level of consciousness and spiritual development because of their lifestyle eating meat from seal and rheindeer? Did they choose to reincarnate there to learn some lesson different from the rest of us? esp. from those living on paradise islands where fruit and nuts are hanging from the trees?

Please adress this crucial question that i've been asking so many times. Should they change their lifestyle and move to a warmer place Pun intended

The Soul choosing it's location/culture of birth through preview of destiny would mean that it has specific catalyst to overcome. Something that is hard for some to understand is what Ra mentions about the Soul's evolution through species. Once the Soul reaches the Human species I assume it starts at the lowest standard of living, being able to acquire the dramatic types of catalyst. Edgar Cayce mentioned something very racist sounding about it. Gandhi brought up a parallel racist comment. When combined with LOO it still took me a while to understand. So my understanding is that we all go through the lower vibrations of existence in our early incarnations. Right now I can claim myself to be in the midrange of vibrations. Born into lower class having to deal with abuse when I was younger. I have the luxury of identifying my last incarnation (a total complete jerk) and it made perfect sense as to why I had gone through what I did growing up. Identifying the "why" brings peace.

Should they change their lifestyle? It happens when they become more aware. There are many that break free of their cultural Karma as an individual. They leave their origin for greener pastures.

I just believe that not all foods are good for everyone. Some people cannot digest meat, others have troubles with the fructose in fruit, others are sensitive to certain grains. The body will show you what is good for you, by its reactions.

A large part of these sensitivities are a result of damage. Such as damage done while in the womb. A mother drinking too much pasteurized cows milk while pregnant can pass on a lactose intolerancy to the child.

This seems to be a family issue you have here and congrats on you for overcoming your gastric troubles, by eliminating meat.

This goes for my wife's family and her families friends. I think the Americans have it the worst as far as food modification. We also are attempting to force it on other countries.

I just read about the 122 year old french woman Jeanne Calment. THey say she smoked until the end, liked port wine and ate around 1kg of chocolate a week. This would be like 10 bars of chocolate LOL

That goes with my statement on DNA, some people have the perfect genetic code to endure endless amounts of damage. Raw chocolate, or cacao is very good for you. There are a few people out there that exist on mostly chocolate

I heard some commentary from the general manager at the company I work for. At the start of a meeting he went up to the front of us and stood sideways. He says "This is what diabetes looks like". He then goes on to explain that the economy has slowed down production slightly, but to expect large increases in schedule in the future. He states that the future looks bright "because McDonalds joints are popping up in countries around the world". We manufacture Insulin Syringes.

[transiten]

Well Pickle, what about pickles? i gather they're rather healthy...
Yes this perspective is difficult to digest, even if this is exactly what i believe: that we choose the circumstances for our next reincarnation and that we'we all done all the bad and the good deeds as learning experiences throughout countless lifetimes....

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[BrownEye]

Well Pickle, what about pickles? i gather they're rather healthy...
Yes this perspective is difficult to digest, even if this is exactly what i believe: that we choose the circumstances for our next reincarnation and that we'we all done all the bad and the good deeds as learning experiences throughout countless lifetimes....

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It was hard for me to actually catch onto the thought. The understanding came to me when reading a horrible story in the paper. A group of teenagers had all drowned while their parents watched. None of them, even the parents, could swim. When I brought it up to a coworker she mentioned that those folk can't swim. I didn't know what she was talking about at first, but then it clicked into place suddenly with other authors comments I didn't previously understand. The concept of soul evolution is what I was missing in order to understand suffering on a more natural basis. If you notice, we can remove a person from their environment, but we can't change what is inside them very easily. The change is gradual and takes a lot of attention, just like the statement Ra makes about our ability to help 2nd density graduate into 3rd. A lot of what Ra says is given in riddles, just like Cayce had done. That explanation of graduation from 2nd to 3rd is a very good way to understand the graduation from lower 3rd to mid 3rd and up. I have found the LOO able to help with my understanding of purpose immensly.

[Monica]

Monica:exclamation:
One final thought concerning the Inuites and the Scandinavian Laponians and others pple living the same lifestyle: Are they on a lower level of consciousness and spiritual development because of their lifestyle eating meat from seal and rheindeer?

It's a slippery slope to start judging the 'level' of another entity. It is not our place to do that.

Did they choose to reincarnate there to learn some lesson different from the rest of us? esp. from those living on paradise islands where fruit and nuts are hanging from the trees?

We all chose the circumstances under which we incarnated. I had abusive parents. Clearly my chosen curriculum for this incarnation was different from that of a person with loving parents.

I live in Texas - cattle country! My dad butchered chickens, pigeons, ducks and geese and I had to hold their legs while he cut their heads off with a hatchet.

My lessons were obviously different from that of someone incarnating on a tropical island with vegetarian parents.

We all make our choices. In this age of readily available information, anyone can choose to change their diet or other circumstances. No one is stuck living in a certain place. With enough determination, it is possible to simply move to a different location, if they so choose.

Please adress this crucial question that i've been asking so many times. Should they change their lifestyle and move to a warmer place

It's not my place to say what they should do!

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You know sometimes i feel like i want to stop talking stop writing stop thinking stop arguing stop having opinions....almost like being deaf and dumb, just acting out my beliefs and feelings...

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You know sometimes i feel like i want to stop talking stop writing stop thinking stop arguing stop having opinions....almost like being deaf and dumb, just acting out my beliefs and feelings...

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...that said i know of carnivorians that are much more loving pple than some vegetarians....not an easy nut to crack...

[Monica]

You know sometimes i feel like i want to stop talking stop writing stop thinking stop arguing stop having opinions....almost like being deaf and dumb, just acting out my beliefs and feelings...

Please don't stop expressing yourself, transiten!! I was just explaining why I didn't feel comfortable answering your direct question about the spiritual 'level' of others.

...that said i know of carnivorians that are much more loving pple than some vegetarians....not an easy nut to crack...

Exactly! And the same can be said of those in various cultures, lifestyles, religions, etc. Which is precisely why I would prefer to avoid any blanket statements about any 1 particular group of people.

The irony is that we don't all perceive our environments the same way. Some people who were born in cold climates where a heavy meat diet is common, might choose to leave, and others not. Conversely, not everyone living in tropical areas really appreciates the bounty right in front of them. I live in a warm climate that has an abundance of wild foods. Yet I see my neighbors spraying toxic pesticides on their lawns, to kill the dandelions and other beautiful, nutritious, and free wild plants! I shudder when I see that! What they think of as noxious weeds, I see as Nature offering bountiful harvest!

While so many people are moving to Costa Rica because of the abundance of lush fruits, I know of some people who can't wait to move up north, to escape the heat.

So we really can't assume what the lesson is, for that person living in the Arctic or on a tropical island. We have no idea how they view it. They might totally take it for granted. As they say, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, eh?

[BrownEye]

We all make our choices. In this age of readily available information, anyone can choose to change their diet or other circumstances. No one is stuck living in a certain place. With enough determination, it is possible to simply move to a different location, if they so choose.

Yes, that is kind of how I see it. The raising of ones consciousness tends to guide you out of your current predicaments. The results of learning through experience.

As far as judging other's levels of evolution, it is not the same as understanding that the laws of evolution applied to the Soul's experience passes right through our preconcieved ideas of differences, whether racial, cultural, or class. I might see a nations group consciousness or karma, but an individual is just that. An individual.

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What they think of as noxious weeds, I see as Nature offering bountiful harvest!

I have heard stories that the weeds in the area happen to have nutrients that people in the same area lack.

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You know sometimes i feel like i want to stop talking stop writing stop thinking stop arguing stop having opinions....almost like being deaf and dumb, just acting out my beliefs and feelings...

I run into people that think they are beating their head against a wall. What they are not picking up on is that all of their debating is a learning experience. It doesn't matter if anyone wins an argument, it is the swapping of words that form ideas in the mind. You may not agree with anything you read, but at the same time, the words are seeds for the subconscious. Your subconscious can figure things out much better than your conscious mind can. So no matter what, discourse is helpful, whatever side you take in a matter.

I'm sure you have been stumped by something, only to notice at a much later date it suddenly became simple? Your subconscious didn't give up the thoughts as you may have done yourself

[Monica]

I have heard stories that the weeds in the area happen to have nutrients that people in the same area lack.

Yes!!! I absolutely believe that! I was introduced to this idea by a book called The Psychic Garden by Mellie Vyldert. It totally blew my mind when I read it! And I have found it to be true!

Last summer, I noticed a single plantain plant in the empty lot next door, as well as several in an empty lot down the street. We were out of an early morning walk, and I intentionally searched our own yard, hoping to spot some plantain plants, but there were none. So I gathered some of the mature seed, with the intention of scattering them in my own yard, as plantain is a very useful and powerful plant ally to have access to.

Well, the very next day, before I even had a chance to scatter the seed, I am not kidding, I saw several plantain plants in my own yard! There was just no way those plants could have grown that fast in just 24 hours! To be so tiny as to be hidden in the grass, to being that big!

I marveled at this, but accepted it as just another of those Matrix Moments.

But then, just a few days later, I picked up my cat who had been rolling the grass, and some tiny critter (probably a spider) was in his fur, and it bit me. My face got all swollen, right under the eye, and I was concerned about my eye. Spider bites can be serious and even deadly, so I took it seriously.

Well, plantain has historically been used for spider bites and even snake bite. So I asked those beautiful plantain plants if they would help me. I felt a resounding yes! I smeared their juice all over the area, and the swelling started going down immediately! It took several days, but I never got any reason to be concerned about the bite. It completely healed.

I am absolutely convinced that this plant's consciousness came to my yard to help me, at just the right time.

[Pablísimo]

These latest posts in the thread have been respectful and reasonable, which makes me very happy. I had given up on this thread previously due to all the rancor. This kind of meaningful exchange is helpful to us all.

To stay on track, I'd like to invite and encourage everyone to de-personalize the issue. I've found it far more productive to separate the actual person consuming the animal flesh or fruits and vegetables from the action itself. To avoid tempers flaring or anyone feeling like they are personally being attacked, let's try to discuss the dietary choice itself rather than specific people. I've met both staunch vegetarians and staunch consumers of animal flesh who had all sorts of other imbalances and issues unrelated to diet. Our 3D manifestation is by definition imperfect, and it's overly simplistic to point to one particular person or group who follows a given diet and latch on to perceived hypocrisy in their other actions. Physical and economic circumstances play a large role in dietary options. And aside from that, some of us just see more clearly than others in certain areas, but we all have flaws and things to balance. Because we err in some areas does not invalidate our positive qualties nor negate the truth that we have thus far discovered on our Journey. What about the kind soul who donated a kidney to a stranger and yet hates Hispanics? Or the old man who volunteers 7 days a week at the homeless shelter and would give you the shirt on his back but refuses to even talk to his sister because she joined a religion he doesn't agree with? No one particular aspect of our Beings, no one particular choice defines us. We are far, far more complex than that.

In my view, we must make many, many choices while in 3D. No one particular choice determines our relative moral fitness and positive polarity, but rather it's the totality of our choices, large and small, over the course of many lifetimes that determines our positive (or negative) polarization. And thank goodness we don't have to be perfect, thank goodness we can suffer from distortions and still become harvestable!

Some of the kindest, most loving people I know consume animal flesh. And I've met my share of angry and rancorous vegetarians. I know some vegetarians who eat nothing but green salad, potato chips, junkfood, cheese and processed soy products. I also know plenty of meat eaters who get most of their caloric intake from fast food chains and have high amounts of refined sugar, corn starch, and preservatives in their diet. In regards to Hitler, he actually ate almost nothing besides chocolate cake for the last 3 months of his life. None of these approaches to diet is a recipe for good health, but neither are they a reflection on the moral superiority or inferiority of a given person. It's undeniable that there are some vibrant and healthy people who consume animal flesh, such as the Inuit people. But it is also true that there are millions of vegetarians with the same or greater level of health and vitality. Surely we've all met a pale and sickly person following the Atkins diet for too long to balance out our experience with an undernourished and uneducated vegetarian? It is ultimately a matter of nutritional education, good choices, and food availability that leads to good health from a dietary perspective.

The fact that one can exist, successfully, on either the meat or veggie path, reminds me once again of the great gift and duty that is being born as a human. We can CHOOSE. We have a choice. Rather than being beholden to the dictates of our physiology and instinct, such as the lion or the deer, we have the great gift of choice. A deer could never live on meat any more than a lion could live without it, but we can do both. Some animals are monogamous by nature, others mate randomly.... we have a choice in that area as well. This is what 3D life is all about, making choices and polarizing as a result of those choices. And again, we CANNOT oversimplify. Being vegetarian doesn't make you a moral God nor does eating meat make you an immoral Demon. Diet does not determine your ultimate polarity. However, some dietary choices are more STO oriented and others are more STS oriented.

We're here to choose. And right now, we're discussing dietary choices, so let's discuss our options!

Meerie is absolutely right to point out that you cannot exist in 3D without harming some other beings. This is part of our catalyst to work through. How could we reasonably avoid, and how could we possibly condemn ourselves for stepping on an insect and crushing it without intention? We can't, obviously, but the lesson I take from this catalyst is NOT that it's OK to harm other beings. I think our reaction to this reality will help us polarize STO or STS depending on what we decide. What I think we should do is seek to MINIMIZE the suffering we cause wherever we can while learning to accept the realities of life in 3D. The choice to become vegetarian or not is a complex blend of economic, spiritual, and practical considerations that is different for each of us. I cannot say for sure what is right for everyone. But I can share my own choice and reasons for making it. I would love to hear the choices and reasons for that choice from others.

I choose to be vegetarian. Reasons:

* The vast majority of meat produced worldwide is done in large agri-business factory farms. These farms subject animals to ENORMOUS suffering and cruelty and on a truly MASSIVE scale. If you will do some basic research you will easily be able to confirm the reality of modern factory farms. This is a totally different issue than simply consuming animal flesh in my view and one of the biggest differences between the meat that the Inuits consume and the vast majority of meat consumed in Western countries. Even if one chooses to eat animal flesh, I seriously doubt that they would willingly comply with raising these animals in such horrendous conditions if they truly had awareness of what goes into their burgers. But the simple reality is, due to economic reasons and public ignorance, the vast majority of meat available to purchase is raised under truly despicable conditions. If you're going to eat at McDonald's, then I suggest you should know exactly what that really means. Put aside the death issue and do some research and find out how these animals are raised and on what scale. Unless one raises their own animals or only purchases from small, highly ethical sources, then one is participating in a vast cycle of cruelty and exploitation of which the actual slaughter is only a tiny part. The huge demand for the animal flesh with no concern for how those animals are raised is the reason for this problem, this massive machine of suffering. Eating meat in the modern era in the West is a totally different proposition than it was in the past due to agri-business. It is a good thing to eat your food with respectful gratitude and bless the sacrifice, but doing that doesn't absolve you of responsibility for participation in a needless cycle of torture and suffering. The demand for cheap meat without concern for how the animals are treated is created by the consumer. Again, I'm referring to what happens before the moment of slaughter. Some people, conscious of the reality of factory farming, seek out meat from relatively ethical sources. I do feel this is superior than just buying whatever is available at the supermarket or average restaurant. It would be a great thing if all animals raised for meat were treated well! However, after intensely pondering the issue, I decided that for ME, in my particular situation and with my own understanding of life, that abstaining from meat altogether is the best choice, the one that is most respectful of other life on this planet. I ultimately concluded that by consuming the animals, even if they were treated and slaughtered humanely, I was still violating their rights.

* I am not convinced that plants feel pain simply based on what my own 5 senses have observed. Animals cry out and run away when slaughtered. Plants do not give us any indication of distress when being harvested. We are here in 3D to make choices and have been given basic biofeedback mechanisms to interpret data from our environment. If plants had the same level of sentience and capacity to feel pain as animals, then I believe we would have been given the tools to recognize this directly. As Monica rightly pointed out, plants can root from cuttings and can easily deal with lost branches and leaves. You'd be hard pressed to find an animal that can easily survive, let alone thrive, after losing random body parts, but yet this is common in the plant world. I recognize there is a fundamentally different physiology to plants. Pain receptors in ANIMALS make great sense because they are mobile. When we touch fire, we get burned and quickly move away from it. When we feel cold, we add clothing. Our pain receptors tell this moving body absolutely valuable information. With plants, there would be no sense in having pain receptors because the plant cannot move to any significant degree. They cannot control their environment by moving about it beyond very slight adjustments, so what value would a pain receptor be to a plant? Would the Infinite Creator or the local Logos have created beings with the capacity to feel pain but no way to communicate it to other beings creating that pain and no way to get away from it either? To me, that idea is absurd. But even that issue aside, I recognize that we do end the incarnation of some plants, but unlike the meat industry the worst most crops are subjected to is chemical pesticides. They still spend most of their normal lifespan under the sunshine, with the wind and rain and under conditions that are not traumatic. Their life is heavenly compared to the shocking conditions of most factory farm animals. Of course all the chemicals and GMO foods need to go, but it's just not quite analogous to what happens with meat animals. So again, an opportunity to minimize suffering is there by opting out of the meat system. This might not be possible for everyone in all circumstances, and I do not judge them. However, as we shift into 4D+ I think it's time for us to let go of activities that exploit other beings. The very hallmark of STS behavior is to use other beings for our own gain, in violation of their rights, without care for them. And even "ethical" sources didn't ultimately satisfy my concerns. Rather than being driven only by my tastebuds or delusions that I need meat to survive, I've chosen what I believe to be the simplest and most sensible 4D solution to the problem for myself and the environment I find myself in -- and that is to adopt a plant based diet with a high level of fruits.

* Fruit bearing plants have evolved to have a symbiotic relationship with animals. The fruit is attractive to be eaten, the human or animal eats the fruit and spits out or passes the seeds out through the digestive tract, helping that plant spread their genetics far and wide. The fruit-bearing plant is also still alive at the end of of this process and I suspect that fruit more than anything else should comprise the bulk of the human diet, especially when one takes into consideration the BULK of the diet of our closest physical cousins, the monkeys.

* We have a huge human population on this planet and relatively limited resources. And yet there IS enough for everyone if we start thinking 4D! It is a basic fact that far less resources are required to grow plant food for human beings than raise animals. If we would let go of our feelings of separation and learn to see all people as our brothers and sisters right now, then we could immediately end hunger worldwide, RIGHT NOW with technology we already have. But the only way that is possible and practical is by the use of plant-based food. Not only that, but animal factory farms are hugely damaging to the environment and will always be so when animals are raised on such a massive scale, whereas plant-based agriculture can be done on huge scale without harming the earth.

* I feel much much better without consuming animal flesh. About 2 weeks after I stopped, I felt as if I had gotten over a sickness I didn't even know I had. I felt vibrant, vital, and alive. My body absolutely responded to the new diet in a very positive fashion. And since going vegetarian I rarely suffer from any sort of sickness, I haven't even had even a common cold for years.

* I view animals as our spiritual younger brothers and sisters.

* I have always gotten along with animals, but since becoming vegetarian (for the last 13 years), I have a deeper connection with the animal world, and animals of all sorts, but especially wild ones, react to me with far far less fear than when I still consumed animal flesh. Coincidence? Maybe, but it doesn't feel that way to me.

Now, I do not presume to know what's right for everyone. I cannot judge what lessons are to be learned by native cultures that subsist on primarily animal flesh. How can I 100% know for sure that eating plants is better than someone trying to eat meat only from "ethical" sources? Clearly meat eating in the modern age is different than meat eating in the past. Clearly there is a difference between an isolated native culture in a very cold climate and one living in the tropics. It's not a simple question! And yet, after so much thought, so much study, meditation, and prayer on the issue, my convictions have crystalized. I made my choice using my best discernment. I feel strongly about vegetarianism, that it is absolutely the best choice for me and the ideal choice for most of the planet as we shift into 4D. However, I try to remain humble and remember that this choice is one we ALL must make individually, and as important as this choice is -- it is NOT what determines our ultimate polarization or moral fitness. It is important for us to remember that we are all still growing, that none of us has all the answers. I think abstaining from meat IS a superior dietary choice, that's my opinion. There are plenty who don't agree with that opinion, and that's just fine. I will continue to walk my path and stay as true to my ideals as I can while within this incarnation. I choose to respect all other beings, even those who don't agree with me about diet. Discussions like this one are helpful because we can respectfully share our OPINIONS and RELATIVE UNDERSTANDINGS on this topic with one another. Let's try not to lose sight of what we're doing -- sharing ideas collectively rather than attacking or defending ourselves.

If anyone else would like to share their choice and their reasons, I'd love to hear them.

Love to all

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Bravissimo Pablísimo

What a perfect recapitulation and summary of what's really important in this long and winding thread!

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[BrownEye]

A deer could never live on meat any more than a lion could live without it, but we can do both.

You do know about the meat scraps and chicken feces fed to cows?

It is a basic fact that far less resources are required to grow plant food for human beings than raise animals.

I seem to remember a UN meeting that worked on a proposal to force farming to move into sustainable organic methods. They knew that it takes a lot less food grown to feed a population if the nutrient density was higher. Since first reading the article I have not been able to find it again.

* I feel much much better without consuming animal flesh. About 2 weeks after I stopped, I felt as if I had gotten over a sickness I didn't even know I had. I felt vibrant, vital, and alive. My body absolutely responded to the new diet in a very positive fashion. And since going vegetarian I rarely suffer from any sort of sickness, I haven't even had even a common cold for years.

Kind of hard to explain to someone all the small issues that disappear, especially when you weren't even aware you had them.

* I have always gotten along with animals, but since becoming vegetarian (for the last 13 years), I have a deeper connection with the animal world, and animals of all sorts, but especially wild ones, react to me with far far less fear than when I still consumed animal flesh. Coincidence? Maybe, but it doesn't feel that way to me.

The fear that the slaughtered animals went through stay in the flesh. When you eat the flesh, that smell seeps through your pores. That is why hunters have such a hard time hiding their scent, they are meat eaters. I just love hearing about the hunters aggravations. (All my associates are hunters). Then I explain that I don't scare the animals away simply because I don't have their relatives in my sweat.

[Lorna]

what a comprehensive post pablisimo - very interesting reading

i was born a vegetarian - eating flesh has always been alien to me, there was no choice to be made, and i stopped eating meat as soon as my parents basically gave up trying to persuade me to eat it, when i was 11, i guess around the time they figured that i could understand nutrition and take responsibility for my own nutritional choices

i used to share my knowledge of vegetarianism and the horrors of meat production in a proactive way but i don't any more, but i will share my thoughts with people if asked

i feel quite strongly now that people encounter reasons for becoming vegetarian at the time that is right for them - i think it's a very personal thing, and i suspect that stumbling upon information or experiences that trigger a move to a veggie diet is very similar to stumbling upon information or experiences of a spiritual nature

in my work now i support local food production, much of it organic / ethical, and i support farmers, butchers and other food producers in a variety of ways. i don't have a problem with this because i respect people who respect the animals and the land they work upon and who understand what 'food' is and where it comes from. the landscape i live in is beef and dairy - the land here can't support cereal or significant veg farming - too hilly and too damp. i wouldn't support or provide services to agri-business or factory farming production. i guess in many ways we are lucky in the uk to have a culture that is pro-organic and welfare aware and very resistant to factory farming - there are still pockets of it though sadly

for me encouraging people to make responsible choice as regards food is a gradual thing - food buying and food consumption becomes a habit. what i try to do is encourage people to make active choices about what they are buying rather than being hypnotised by supermarkets, and to engage with the food they're buying. it's astonishing how many people simply don't think about food

[Pablísimo]

Bravissimo Pablísimo

aww, thanks.

I've really appreciated your contributions to this thread as well, you seem to be working through this question in a very sincere and balanced way.

A deer could never live on meat any more than a lion could live without it, but we can do both.

You do know about the meat scraps and chicken feces fed to cows?

Unfortunately, yes. But a cow could never subsist on a diet of mostly or only meat, unlike a human. And I think Mother Nature gave a pretty loud signal about the inappropriateness of this in the form of Mad Cow Disease.

Kind of hard to explain to someone all the small issues that disappear, especially when you weren't even aware you had them.

Yes, exactly!!! I didn't think I had problems in any of these areas, but going vegetarian improved my sight, breathing, ability to sleep, cognition, mood and on and on. So it was like recovering from an illness that I didn't know I had but noticing the difference. Very hard to explain this to someone who has not gone through it.

The fear that the slaughtered animals went through stay in the flesh. When you eat the flesh, that smell seeps through your pores. That is why hunters have such a hard time hiding their scent, they are meat eaters.

Wow, that explanation makes perfect sense!! I was aware that fear (and its physical analog in the form of adrenaline and other hormones) was retained in the animal flesh. However it never occurred to me that it might give off a scent and that THIS is what the animals that suddenly were no longer as freaked out by my presence were picking up on. One would expect the hunted to be able to pick up the scent of a predator. Click! :idea: Hey thanks alot for sharing that insight.

Love to all

[Monica]

I'd like to invite and encourage everyone to de-personalize the issue. I've found it far more productive to separate the actual person consuming the animal flesh or fruits and vegetables from the action itself. To avoid tempers flaring or anyone feeling like they are personally being attacked, let's try to discuss the dietary choice itself rather than specific people.

Agreed! As with any volatile topic, it's important to keep the discussion impersonal, to avoid the discussion degenerating.

I've met both staunch vegetarians and staunch consumers of animal flesh who had all sorts of other imbalances and issues unrelated to diet.

Absolutely true!

However, some dietary choices are more STO oriented and others are more STS oriented.

That is the crux of the matter!

Pablisimo, your entire post is totally right on! I especially liked that part about humans having the ability, and even the duty, to choose. This is a huge part of the equation.

Thank you for such a comprehensive explanation of why you've chosen to be vegetarian. I agree 100%! And all those reasons you listed, are mine as well. I would not change a single word of what you posted, but will only add to it some additional reasons of my own.

I've selected just a few key points you made, to expound upon. But please know that I am in complete agreement with your entire post, including all the parts I'm not specifically responding to.

* The vast majority of meat produced worldwide is done in large agri-business factory farms. These farms subject animals to ENORMOUS suffering and cruelty and on a truly MASSIVE scale.

In addition to all your reasons, I would add to that, that I believe this massive suffering is contributing greatly to the overall distress and darkness of this planet, and actually hindering the harvest. It's not just about individuals' harvestability, but overall, as a whole planetary consciousness, we are all being hindered by the massive suffering...whether we are vegetarians or not. Thus, I believe that anything we can do, to raise awareness of those directly contributing to this suffering, is in the best interest of the planet and all her inhabitants...in much the same way that raising awareness about the atrocities of war affects us all.

If you're going to eat at McDonald's, then I suggest you should know exactly what that really means.

Surely we, students of the Law of One, can make conscious choices? How can the choice be conscious without fully understanding just how horrendous the animal suffering really is? And how can one understand this, without fully investigating the matter?

Put aside the death issue and do some research and find out how these animals are raised and on what scale.

OK maybe I only agree 99.99999 %.

I understand your point here. If a person is choosing to eat animals, then yes, temporarily putting aside the death issue, in order to make more conscious choice of selecting only animals that were raised humanely, is definitely a commendable step.

My little teeny bit of disagreement, or maybe it's just a clarification, would be to suggest that the 'death issue' be put aside only temporarily. It cannot be eliminated from the equation, because, as I see it, it is still a violation of the free will of the animal, no matter how it's done.

I absolutely do agree that it isn't a black-and-white issue and varying degrees to our choices, and I agree that, if a person is going to eat animals, it's far better to choose those that had some sort of life, rather than those who were tortured on a daily basis, as is routine with most of the meat consumed.

Unless one raises their own animals or only purchases from small, highly ethical sources, then one is participating in a vast cycle of cruelty and exploitation of which the actual slaughter is only a tiny part.

Well said.

The huge demand for the animal flesh with no concern for how those animals are raised is the reason for this problem, this massive machine of suffering. Eating meat in the modern era in the West is a totally different proposition than it was in the past due to agri-business.

I would add to this that, in the past, animals were needed for survival. But that is no longer the case. We now have synthetic materials, as well as plant-based materials, to keep us warm. We no longer need skins and furs. And we no longer need the bodies of the animals for food.

To the view that animals have, on some level, volunteered to exist to feed us, I would respond:

That may have been true at some time. This 3D reality is fraught with violence. As unity100 pointed out, even animals in the wild are violent to one another, and suffer on a daily basis from hunger, fleas, cold, etc.

So the inherent design of this planet seems to have included the suffering of some entities at the hands of other entities.

But, is that a reason to continue it? Aren't we evolving? If our eyes are opened to suffering, and there is something we can do to reduce that suffering, don't we have a responsibility to do whatever we can, even if it's making a different choice about what we put in our mouths?

What if, just what if, as we evolve, at some point, instead of animals feeding other animals, the situation transforms into plants 'existing to feed' animals? Wouldn't this be a logical progression?

What if the plant oversouls have agreed to feed us, and the idea that animals have agreed to feed us is actually obsolete?

What if the plant oversouls agreed to feed us temporarily, until we evolve to the point that we no longer need to consume any other entities at all, neither plant nor animal?

What if the plant oversouls chose bodies that are able to regenerate the equivalent of limbs (leaves) without pain, because that is a suitable design for an entity that is going to join its life force with that of a higher, more evolved entity?

What if the plant oversouls chose bodies that cannot run away, cannot alleviate pain, because running away is irrelevant to an entity that WANTS to be harvested, that does not feel pain when its leaves are removed?

What if plants and animals really are very different, being that plants are immobile for a reason, and animals are mobile for a reason? The reason being that animals feel pain, and have been given bodies that allow them to escape the source of that pain? While plants don't need to run or fly, since they don't feel pain?

What if there is still some karma incurred when consuming plants, but not nearly as much as that which is incurred when consuming animals? Likewise, what if there is less karma incurred when consuming fruits and nuts than when consuming the whole plant? So there are varying degrees, and we are intended to follow a logical progression as we evolve ourselves?

What if, eventually, we can exit this type of scenario altogether, by consuming some sort of completely karma-free, plant-derived, or maybe even energy-derived, nectar?

Hey wait, didn't Ra say that very thing happens in 4D?

It seems to me that going from eating animals, to eating plants, to eating fruits, then to eating only nectar, and eventually to eating only pure Light, is a natural progression. But how do we get from point A to point E?

It is a good thing to eat your food with respectful gratitude and bless the sacrifice, but doing that doesn't absolve you of responsibility for participation in a needless cycle of torture and suffering.

Exactly!

Some people, conscious of the reality of factory farming, seek out meat from relatively ethical sources. I do feel this is superior than just buying whatever is available at the supermarket or average restaurant. It would be a great thing if all animals raised for meat were treated well! However, after intensely pondering the issue, I decided that for ME, in my particular situation and with my own understanding of life, that abstaining from meat altogether is the best choice, the one that is most respectful of other life on this planet. I ultimately concluded that by consuming the animals, even if they were treated and slaughtered humanely, I was still violating their rights.

Well said!

* I am not convinced that plants feel pain simply based on what my own 5 senses have observed. Animals cry out and run away when slaughtered. Plants do not give us any indication of distress when being harvested. We are here in 3D to make choices and have been given basic biofeedback mechanisms to interpret data from our environment. If plants had the same level of sentience and capacity to feel pain as animals, then I believe we would have been given the tools to recognize this directly. As Monica rightly pointed out, plants can root from cuttings and can easily deal with lost branches and leaves. You'd be hard pressed to find an animal that can easily survive, let alone thrive, after losing random body parts, but yet this is common in the plant world. I recognize there is a fundamentally different physiology to plants. Pain receptors in ANIMALS make great sense because they are mobile. When we touch fire, we get burned and quickly move away from it. When we feel cold, we add clothing. Our pain receptors tell this moving body absolutely valuable information. With plants, there would be no sense in having pain receptors because the plant cannot move to any significant degree. They cannot control their environment by moving about it beyond very slight adjustments, so what value would a pain receptor be to a plant? Would the Infinite Creator or the local Logos have created beings with the capacity to feel pain but no way to communicate it to other beings creating that pain and no way to get away from it either? To me, that idea is absurd.

Pablisimo, that is the best response to the "we might as well eat animals since plants feel pain too" argument I've ever seen! Profound!

as we shift into 4D+ I think it's time for us to let go of activities that exploit other beings. The very hallmark of STS behavior is to use other beings for our own gain, in violation of their rights, without care for them.

Exactly!

I think abstaining from meat IS a superior dietary choice, that's my opinion.

You have just said what I have avoided saying. But yes, I DO think it's a superior choice! This is not about being self-righteous. It's a matter of simply doing the math. It's about championing a more efficient, more economically feasible, healthier, less cruel, less damaging to the planet, etc. choice. It's superior on all counts, for ALL concerned! For us, for the animals, for the plants, and for the animals.

There are plenty who don't agree with that opinion, and that's just fine. I will continue to walk my path and stay as true to my ideals as I can while within this incarnation. I choose to respect all other beings, even those who don't agree with me about diet. Discussions like this one are helpful because we can respectfully share our OPINIONS and RELATIVE UNDERSTANDINGS on this topic with one another. Let's try not to lose sight of what we're doing -- sharing ideas collectively rather than attacking or defending ourselves.

Beautifully said!

And now, I need to go check on the Tofurkey in the oven!

[BrownEye]

I would add to this that, in the past, animals were needed for survival. But that is no longer the case. We now have synthetic materials, as well as plant-based materials, to keep us warm. We no longer need skins and furs. And we no longer need the bodies of the animals for food.

This mostly applies to the civilized world. And I am against synthetics honestly.

That may have been true at some time. This 3D reality is fraught with violence. As unity100 pointed out, even animals in the wild are violent to one another, and suffer on a daily basis from hunger, fleas, cold, etc.

So the inherent design of this planet seems to have included the suffering of some entities at the hands of other entities.

That is the law of the wild. We are supposed to be transcending animal nature I would imagine. Apart from the wild. At least as far as calling ourselves "civilized".

But how do we get from point A to point E?

Strive for discipline

Pablísimo Wrote:
It is a good thing to eat your food with respectful gratitude and bless the sacrifice, but doing that doesn't absolve you of responsibility for participation in a needless cycle of torture and suffering.

The Mormons on my mothers side are huge flesh eaters. When I looked up the origin of blessing our food I came across information about their belief system. It seems that Joseph Smith's interpretation of Genesis 9:4-5 would be to ask for forgiveness for every animal killed.
4 “But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal.
And of course my family had no idea

I can't believe Fox news even pushes the meat idea. I have to deal with that station on my breaks at work

And now, I need to go check on the Tofurkey in the oven!

We don't eat meat replacements because of the soy. My wife makes an awesome mushroom burger that tastes exactly like the beef burgers I used to love.

[Monica]

This mostly applies to the civilized world. And I am against synthetics honestly.

Me too, for everyday wear. But for extreme cold, synthetics work great, and I'd rather have synthetic warmth than use animals skins or fur.

That is the law of the wild. We are supposed to be transcending animal nature I would imagine. Apart from the wild. At least as far as calling ourselves "civilized".

Exactly!

I can't believe Fox news even pushes the meat idea.

They all do.

I have to deal with that station on my breaks at work

You have my sympathy! For many reasons other than just their choice of advertising!

We don't eat meat replacements because of the soy.

I generally don't either. They're too refined and not exactly 'natural' foods.

My wife makes an awesome mushroom burger that tastes exactly like the beef burgers I used to love.

Did you know we have a recipe thread?

Bring4th Forums > Olio > The Obligatory RECIPE Thread!

[Monica]

I just added a lot of text to post #229 to expound upon points made.

[BrownEye]

remember in Eden? Humanity wasn't allowed to eat the animals, and since Eden was a perfect place, a perfect place would be a place where animals aren't killed and eaten.

I found this on the extremist ladoverbaptist site. That place is endless laughs.

[Monica]

remember in Eden? Humanity wasn't allowed to eat the animals, and since Eden was a perfect place, a perfect place would be a place where animals aren't killed and eaten.

I found this on the extremist ladoverbaptist site. That place is endless laughs.

Well if I believed in Eden, I would agree!

Yeah that site is hilarious!

Seriously though, there is much in the Bible to support the premise that the eating of animals came later, 'after the fall' and furthermore, 'God' supposedly punished the Israelites for 'lusting after flesh' instead of eating the Manna 'God' gave them.

I'm not into the Bible, but it is interesting to find support for vegetarianism in it.

[Ali Quadir]

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheVeganSoci...ZAHIB97iGY
Some good info here.

[Monica]

Meat increases risk of cancer:

http://www.vegsource.com/harris/cancer_vegdiet.htm

Excerpts:

Cancer is the second most common cause of death in the United States, where over 1.3 million new cases of cancer are diagnosed annually, with 550,000 deaths. Current United States incidence figures for the ten leading types of cancer are shown (2). Women have an approximately 1:8 lifetime chance of developing breast cancer, and men have an approximately 1:5 chance of developing prostate cancer. Rates above are per 100,000 in 1992. Both Hodgkin's disease and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma are included under lymphoma.

There are three categories of evidence suggesting that a veg*n (vegetarian or vegan) diet reduces risk for various types of cancer.

Epidemiologically, the intake of animal source food correlates with the country-by-country incidence of six types of cancer. Although none of the reporting countries can be assumed to have large vegan or even vegetarian populations, it appears that the less animal source food per capita, the lower the cancer rate.

...
Evidence from a broad scientific literature suggests:

A. Rates for at least six common types of cancer, country by country, correlate with the consumption of animal source food.

B. There is a modest negative correlation with these cancers and plant source food consumption.

C. A variety of phytochemicals present in plant foods have been demonstrated to be protective against the DNA damage that leads to cancer.

D. The veg*n diet, extolled by its advocates for at least 150 years as a cancer preventive strategy, is the logical end point of the dietary recommendations, now made by scientific organizations, to reduce animal food consumption.

[Monica]

A whopping 87% of all agricultural land in the US is used to feed farm animals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wZendyXhU4

This video also shows raw vegan clinics whose clients get off diabetes meds in 5 days...heart patients reversing their conditions...cancers being eradicated.

Folks, we've been scammed. Big time.

Meanwhile, every year 15 million children die of hunger.

What's wrong with this picture?

[Randall T Ball]

Its personal lifestyle choice. But equating a higher consciousness with that choice is the equivalent of a southern Baptist claiming hellfire is your destiny because you don’t believe the Bible is the literal word of God. Both beliefs are personal beliefs…with no way of proving or disproving an effect otherwise.

Physiologically, humans are omnivores. The structure of our teeth and digestive systems indicate that. The creator had to of had that in mind. True herbivores digestive systems are radically different than omnivores. The difference, I think, is Free Will. I commend you on your expression of Free Will to choose this path. But I don’t choose to follow that path.

Richard

I question the statement that "humans are omnivores". It's my understanding that this is not correct, that if you compare our physiology to other mammals, we are clearly designed as "herbivores", including our digestive systems and teeth. Obviously not like cows, etc. but in comparison with gorillas and other primate vegetarian mammals particularly.. A classic example is our supposedly "canine" teeth. Just try jumping on a deer and sinking those canine teeth of yours its its neck! Sorry, just won't work. Please give supporting evidence to your statement that "human's are omnivores". Unless you can provide evidence of which I am not aware, I believe you have been mislead. Thank you. Randall

[fairyfarmgirl]

The Great Apes are Omnivores... they will capture and eat small mammals and love termites, grubs, and bugs as well. They will also kill and eat rival babies of other mothers--- especially the Chimps. If you have not noticed, the Great Apes have pronounced canines and they will literally take your face off as a woman in CT USA experienced and had to have a face transplant.

Humans bite too and it can be a nasty one! We are just as aggressive as the next predator.

fairyfarmgirl

[Monica]

Hi Randall! Welcome to bring4th!

Humans bite too and it can be a nasty one! We are just as aggressive as the next predator.

Many 3D humans are undoubtedly aggressive and violent. But I don't think Randall was referring to that...he was referring to humans not having a natural urge, or the teeth, to bite into a bloody animal and eat it raw.

Unlike dogs and cats, most humans prefer their prey cooked, seasoned, and disguised.