In regards to eating meat

[Clordio]

I am very conflicted on the issue of eating meat I would very much like to begin a dialogue as to why one should not or should be able to consume meat.

In this day and age and being surrounded by many peers in my age group (late teens early 20's) it has become quite popular to be vegetarian and even vegan. The reasons often given are quite understandable I feel such as not harming or killing other animals and to also resist the horrible treatment and entrapment that occurs when animals must be confined to small quarters and fed cornmeal constantly.

But my concern is that if I am to eat what I like to call "fare treatment" meat am I still being harmful to life itself? Is the act of eating the meat of an animal alone reason enough to not eat it? If so what makes animals so special compared to plants?

Being a botanist I may be a bit biased but I feel that plants are just as aware and sentient as animals, though they may not express it as we do. They can not cry out in pain but the sap seeping from a tree's wound still coagulates much like our own blood.

So how can it be ok to eat plants, life forms who may be quiet but living nonetheless, and not animals.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not on a mission to say you can't eat anything at all, rather the opposite. Is the consumption of animals not part of the continuing cycle of life, the passing on of energy? A bear would just as soon eat me as I would a chicken, and this is nature, this is natural. In some parts of the world there are hardly any plants and natives must live solely on cow products (meat, milk, and even blood) to attain nutrients. Are they to be considered harmful to the life cycle simply because of the residence?

Sorry for the long first post, this has just been weighing on my mind quite heavily lately.

[yossarian]

it's a question of magnitude

remember - when you eat an animal you're actually eating all of the plants that animal has ever eaten, which in the case of some animals is more plant matter than you could imagine. A cow requires an insane amount of plant matter to survive.

Eating food that is closer to the sun is not only healthier for you, it does less damage to life in general.

The healthiest diet on earth is a high fruit diet. When you eat fruit you AREN'T harming plants, because fruit is specifically designed by the plant with the intention of being eaten.

A ideal (healthwise) vegan raw food diet gets 80% of it's calories from raw fruit. This reduces harm to animals and plants. The rest of the 20% is from nuts (also do not harm plants) and vegetables for nutrients (which do harm plants).

Not only does a 80/10/10 vegan raw food diet reduce the amount of damage you do, it is literally the healthiest diet that human beings have discovered. It is literally the healthiest possible human diet and for most of the world it has been impossible to attain UNTIL TODAY. Thanks to modern agricultural practices we have enough bananas and oranges and mangoes and papayas so that people in the northern hemispheres can eat high-fruit diets year round and get the majority of their calories from fruit.

Bottom line: Vegetarianism is better for everyone - yourself, the plants, the animals.

Veganism is a step up from vegetarianism.

Raw food veganism is a step up from veganism.

80/10/10 high fruit/low fat raw food veganism is the ideal human diet as determined by traditional cultures (especially paleolithic) and by modern science.

Also it's worth noting that the Yogis have stated this is the ideal diet, but of course in the past they advocated eating grains because this ideal diet was simply not feasible until recently. This kind of diet is backed up by lots of intuitive sources, for instance David Wilcock who also channels Ra, and Edgar Cayce, both received channeled information that points to this kind of diet. There were slight modifications, but in all cases the modifications are due to the fact that for most of history an 80% fruit diet was simply not possible, so certain "next-best" foods would have to be added in such as rice. But Edgar Cayce and David Wilcock's sources, and their reasoning given, absolutely support the paleolithic diet and support the Yogi injunction to be vegetarian.

Meat has an inherently more disharmonious vibration and upsets the mind and spirit as well, reducing psychic ability. Throughout history, there have been many cultures required to eat meat for survival purposes. These days, we do not need to eat meat to survive.

Channeling that describes 4th density life, by the way, has indicated that in 4D people ONLY (or almost entirely anyway) eat fruit that is freely given by fruit trees.

Our dietary needs are basically:
- calories from high-calorie fruits (banana, orange, mango, papaya)
- nutrients from greens (spinach, romaine lettuce)
- nutrients from veggies (random assortment of veggies [exclude potatoes, corn, broccoli, and all grains. These are harmful])
- nuts as a fat source (this is optional)

Human protein requirements are at maximum 25g per day, especially if you get protein from vegetable sources rather than animal sources. Vegetable protein is more bioavailable and so 25g (which is a typical daily protein intake for a raw vegan) is actually far more than they need.

It is Orion brainwashing which has convinced humanity that they must eat the negative vibrations of animal corpses, must eat high protein/high fat diets full of cooked food, etc.

http://rogerhaeske.com/
http://www.living-foods.com/

[ayadew]

Highly interesting discussion. I have only recently begun to question my food and diet.
For a months time now I have pondered the ways of our modern world's food matters, and I find that I can almost not eat anything my general grocery store sells me. It is filled with chemicals and negative intent.

So I have resorted to eating mostly vegetarian also. To become more vegetarian seems to be a part of many's awakening process.

I have not much to add to this discussion other than that I am interested in yossarian's view of fruits, and that I will attempt to eat an increased amount of such hereafter.
Eating does not have to be a negative activity, simply give gratitude to the creator and the food that nurtures you. But I do attempt to eat very little meat also, due to the less harmonious conditions the industry imposes on our beloved 2nd density friends. I do not wish to contribute to this process.

[fairyfarmgirl]

Good Greetings All:

I attempted do eat a raw food diet consistently. It is simply beyond my budget ability at this time. As well as beyond my time budget. I do not have 3 days to wait to eat bread that has to sprout. When the kiddos are hungry they are hungry! LOL I eat a mostly vegetarian diet. Where I live fruit can sometimes be very very expensive. A diet of just apples in the winter is not going to give us our nutritional needs... not to mention all that fructose will make everyone loopy... The Celtic Druids used to fast on apples before going on a vision quest. This is not how I want to send my kiddos off to school. LOL

So since I have a family to feed we eat mostly vegetarian with cheese, eggs and yogurt to round out our diet. Eggs, cheese and yogurt are very filling and meet the health needs of my growing kiddos. When I cut them out of our diet the kiddos got sick and listless. The vitamin B's in cheese and eggs are essential for body health.

We eat most of our veggies and fruits raw. The kiddos do not like raw grains that have been sprouted. They will not eat them. What a waste of $$$$$ for me and effort. So we eat bread that is nutritious and homemade cooked grains. It is very expensive to buy organic raw grains.

I must also add that I make most of our food from scratch or I buy organic quick foods for when we are traveling.

Potatoes are absolutely horrid raw. So we generally cook them. This is a staple for our diet. A good Irish diet of potatoes (cooked) raw cabbage, a wee bit of raw onions, and lots of raw carrots and dried raisins. But we do cook our starches.

In the perfect world, all we would have to do is go out into our permaculture gardens and pick our fruits and veggies and nuts and consume as we move through the abundant food producing forest. This is becoming a reality slowly but surely as the greening of our beautiful Earth Mother continues. Anastasia, by Vladamire Megre is a good place to learn of this incredible movement.

I am planting permaculture gardens in my yard. It is a labor of love that hopefully will result in fruiting trees and nut trees and guilds of plants that all harmoniously work together to assist us in our eating and open our hearts with their beauty!

An interesting fact... tomatoes and roses are companion plants. They really help each other out and work together to ward off pests. I am going to try this combination when I plant this year. Of course, tomatoes are annuals where I live because we have Winter here.

fairyfarmgirl

[Clordio]

Thank you all for your responses, you've definitely given me more to think about!

Yossarian, could you explain the reasoning behind the idea that potatoes, broccoli, corn, etc. are bad for you?

Some of those are staple foods that many are not able to live without simply because of monetary means.

[yossarian]

The biggest barriers to adopting raw veganism are:

1. Most people don't understand how to properly do it.
2. Expensive
3. Cooked-food addiction
4. Social stigma

Sprouts are actually a useless food. They don't provide enough nutrition for the quantities you eat them in. A proper raw food diet is made up of at least 1500 calories PER DAY from any combination of the following 4 fruits: Papayas, Mangoes, Bananas, Oranges

This means 15 bananas, or 20 navel oranges, or 15 Papayas, or 10 Mangoes. Most people can't imagine eating so many fruits, and this is the "mental leap" you have to get over.

The following foods should be avoided, regardless of what your diet is:
- Potatoes
- Broccoli
- Corn
- Sprouts
- Meat
- Dairy
- Stored Grains
- Cashews, Peanuts
- Barley
- Apples (and other high-fructose fruits, but apples are the big one)
- Beans
- Caffeine
- Mushrooms
- Vinegar
- Most oils
- Unfermented soy products like tofu (instead of tofu, use tempeh)

Sound impossible? :p

A partial list of reasons is given here: http://www.divinecosmos.com/index.php?op...&Itemid=30

That site does not cover all the reasons however. That site also leaves out the fact that all grains - wheat, rice, and so on - have low levels of toxicity and are difficult for the body to use. Of course, if you can't manage to get enough calories from fruits, you must eat something else. And whole grain wheat and rice are basically the next best option after the calorie-laden fruits.

The human body is based on the ape body, and the ape body has been evolving for literally millions of years to eat a diet of raw greens and fruits in large quantities.

Since the start of the neolithic age, such a diet has not been possible for the majority of humans. Only a few jungle tribes have had access to enough fruit to do so - UNTIL NOW!

Basically this is my own personal ideal diet, based on my own caloric needs, tastes, and budget.
PER DAY BASIC REQUIREMENTS FOR IDEAL NUTRITION:
- approx. 1500 calories of Bananas, Oranges Mangoes, Papayas,
- 200g spinach
- 200g romaine lettuce
- 4 stalks celery
- 1 cucumber

I use a blender to blend most of this stuff together and drink it. And I eat only organic.

With this incredibly simple diet, I actually am getting far more nutrition than 99.9999% of the world. I also eat other veggies whenever I want in whatever quantities I feel like as a snack. (Tomatos, Grapes, Carrots, Strawberries, Cauliflower are some of my favs) I also can eat nuts whenever I feel like it, as long as I limit my intake to less than 20g of fat per day.

Personally, my only challenge on this diet, now that I've learned how to do it, is that I crave the emotional comfort of comfort foods every now and then :p Sometimes I really just want some Kraft Dinner or some french fries or a veggie burger. When I stick to this diet I feel incredibly good and full of energy. The difference is honestly mind blowing... it shows how we are all poisoned and dumbed down by our toxic food supply.

If you google "Raw food" you'll find many many results. I recommend Steve Pavlina and Roger Haeske for more info.

[fairyfarmgirl]

I do not eat bannanas. Bananas are a genetically engineered food and are heavily sprayed with pesticides and herbicides. I feel much better since I have stopped eating bananas. Also, Banana plantations are a mono-culture. This goes against all principles of nature. So I stay away from them.

Further, I believe in eating regional foods. I feel this is best to be in harmony with the Earth and to live from the land.

Apples are a staple of our diet and my kids have never been sick. It is when we ommit the foods that we eat and feel good eating regularly that problems then occur.

The bottom line is there are many ways to nourish our bodies and souls. It is dependent on the body and the soul what that is.

fairyfarmgirl

---

I am very conflicted on the issue of eating meat I would very much like to begin a dialogue as to why one should not or should be able to consume meat.

In this day and age and being surrounded by many peers in my age group (late teens early 20's) it has become quite popular to be vegetarian and even vegan. The reasons often given are quite understandable I feel such as not harming or killing other animals and to also resist the horrible treatment and entrapment that occurs when animals must be confined to small quarters and fed cornmeal constantly.

But my concern is that if I am to eat what I like to call "fare treatment" meat am I still being harmful to life itself? Is the act of eating the meat of an animal alone reason enough to not eat it? If so what makes animals so special compared to plants?

Being a botanist I may be a bit biased but I feel that plants are just as aware and sentient as animals, though they may not express it as we do. They can not cry out in pain but the sap seeping from a tree's wound still coagulates much like our own blood.

So how can it be ok to eat plants, life forms who may be quiet but living nonetheless, and not animals.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not on a mission to say you can't eat anything at all, rather the opposite. Is the consumption of animals not part of the continuing cycle of life, the passing on of energy? A bear would just as soon eat me as I would a chicken, and this is nature, this is natural. In some parts of the world there are hardly any plants and natives must live solely on cow products (meat, milk, and even blood) to attain nutrients. Are they to be considered harmful to the life cycle simply because of the residence?

Sorry for the long first post, this has just been weighing on my mind quite heavily lately.

Good Greetings:

In the beginning of my awakening I was caught in a loop of ethics concerning food and violence. My mind argued that the very act of living is an act of violence against nature. Then I went into a great deal of self- and humanity hatred. Yes, at one time I thought the only bad guys was humanity.

Since those early years and wanderings in my youth (so long ago LOL, really I do mean that it was a long time ago almost 30 years), I have discovered that much of life is a symboitic relationship. Our very cells that make up our bodies are symbiotic in thier relationship as is the cells of all life.

There are foods that will feel right for you to eat and your path. Then, there will be foods that do not feel right. The choice is to choose what feels right and you wish to eat.

Sometimes an animal will give its self away so that you may eat and live. Deer are known to do this in times of hunger for those that live in the woods. Fish are also known to give away themselves so that humans may live: It is the choice to eat or not to eat based on what feels right and whether or not you are truly hungry.

If I am hungry I will eat what is available and nutritious. If I am out in the woods this may mean berries, apples and grubs in the summer and fall. In the early spring and winter this may mean I will have to call and wait for an animal give-away.

I have since moved from the woods and into a more settled area. So once again I must supplement my family foods from that of the grocery store with what I can raise in my gardens and/or gather from the woods not far from here.

You are right in that plants have intelligence. Trees are some of the most intelligent of all plants. They are just as sentient as you or I or any one else as are Dolphins, Dogs, Horses, Crows, Ravens, Owls, Hawks, Eagles, Parrots , Whales, Cats, Elephants, etc. The rule I have found to apply is any animal or plant that is social ordered (trees included if you will observe the growth pattern of a grove) are sentient.

So the question is this, If the animals and plants are sentient then when speaking to them you can learn what is amiable with them for you to consume. For instance, a tree would say please enjoy my ripe fruit. Berries bushes would say please enjoy my berries.

fairyfarmgirl

[yossarian]

Certainly lots of people are healthy despite a "non-ideal" diet. Anything in moderation is ok.

Organic bananas don't use pesticides and aren't genetically modified. I agree that pesticides and GMO are bad, and that goes for ALL GMO foods, not just bananas. Grains, veggies, apples, soup, pizza, etc.

Agriculture in general is a mono-culture that goes against the principle of nature. In the paleolithic age humans ate bananas off the tree and didn't grow crops -- not gardens, not fields.

I mean your reason for rejecting bananas basically apply to ALL human food and there is no reason for you to single out bananas. Bananas are basically the 2nd healthiest source of calories in the world, after mangoes in fact which are the #1 best source of calories in the world.

It's not necessary to feel threatened by this "ideal" diet. Humans do not vary that much when it comes to diet... physically speaking all humans have the same nutritional needs. Where humans differ is in social needs and emotional needs. People are very very attached to their food choices, people don't want to feel like they have been doing less-than-perfect. This kind of fear of non-perfection is unnecessary.

There are no mistakes, and any distortion in the human diet should not be seen as an evil. Most people are not in a position to adopt the ideal diet. You have to pick your battles.. it takes a lot of work and effort to adopt an ideal diet and sometimes it is simply not feasible due to other engagements.

So anyway I totally understand (and expect) that most people who read my writing here today are not going to adopt it. For most people it is simply not practical.

However, there is no need to deny the fact that this is indeed the best way to nourish the body. The 80/10/10 raw diet has been confirmed over and over again by every possible source:

- Channeling by David Wilcock
- Channeling by Edgar Cayce
- Testimony of the Yogi-Saints from India
- Scientific evidence and research
- Countless personal experience and studies done by nutritionists and involved people.

I suggest that perfectionism causes anxiety and should be abandoned. Instead, we should all recognize that we are perpetually imperfect and we should smile at our imperfection, accept it and forgive it, and then direct the will where we feel inspired to direct it.

As Ra says, "Acceptance of self, forgiveness of self, and direction of the will: this is the path of the disciplined personality."

What I get out of your post fairyfarmgirl is a defensiveness that, IMO, is based on the feeling like you're being attacked. I'm not attacking you, I think the fact you spend time thinking about nutrition makes you conscientious and a trailblazer.

In my life I'm also a trailblazer, and since I don't have a family to worry about, since I don't have significant economic challenges, I'm able to spend a lot of my free time seeking out the cutting edge. I present this information in the spirit of giving, not in the spirit of attack or condemnation.

I myself don't even follow this perfect diet 100% of the time -- I know first hand how hard it is. But it's something to keep in mind, something to aim for.

There is no need to feel guilty, and no need to feel defensive. Baby steps are the best steps....whether those steps are towards being more loving, being more disciplined, or something simple and relatively trivial like eating more nutritious food.

Baby steps are always the best steps

[fairyfarmgirl]

Certainly lots of people are healthy despite a "non-ideal" diet. Anything in moderation is ok.


As Ra says, "Acceptance of self, forgiveness of self, and direction of the will: this is the path of the disciplined personality."

What I get out of your post fairyfarmgirl is a defensiveness that, IMO, is based on the feeling like you're being attacked. I'm not attacking you, I think the fact you spend time thinking about nutrition makes you conscientious and a trailblazer.

In my life I'm also a trailblazer, and since I don't have a family to worry about, since I don't have significant economic challenges, I'm able to spend a lot of my free time seeking out the cutting edge. I present this information in the spirit of giving, not in the spirit of attack or condemnation.

I myself don't even follow this perfect diet 100% of the time -- I know first hand how hard it is. But it's something to keep in mind, something to aim for.

There is no need to feel guilty, and no need to feel defensive. Baby steps are the best steps....whether those steps are towards being more loving, being more disciplined, or something simple and relatively trivial like eating more nutritious food.

Baby steps are always the best steps

I apologize if you felt I was attacking you in any way. It was not my intent. I was merely expressing a passionate opinion that I feel strongly about. I am passionately opposed to mono-cultures of plants. I will moderate my enthusiasm in the future so that I do not offend. I apologize once again.

Thank you for your thoughtful and cutting edge information you have presented here.

fairyfarmgirl

[ayadew]

You speak passionately of this diet of yours yossarian. Do you feel full of energy all times of the day? And do you have any specific times of the day when you eat? Do you not take any extra vitamins at all, such as fish oil and other things which (deducted from my highly limited knowledge) you might be missing out with that diet?
I feel food is a complex matter, but perhaps I am simply led away from a simple truth by conflicting sources.

[yossarian]

Fairyfarmgirl - No worries at all. You didn't step on my toes. I appreciate your kind words.

Ayadew - Good questions.

There are two things here though, there is what *I* do which is basically what I'm capable of doing now, and what is *ideal*.

For me, yes, when I stick to my diet I am just full of energy all the time. Whenever I need energy to exert myself, whether physically or mentally, it is there. There is no "crash". I will be walking down the street and I just feel vibrant and bouncy you could say, just full of energy, and I sort of jump around and stuff. You just sort of ooze energy when you eat this way.

To get to my university classes I have to walk up a really giant hill. Before going raw I would plod up it like a determined soldier. After going raw, even only 3 days after being 100% raw, it was the most profound change for me, I just felt buoyant and I just felt like running up the hill with a smile on my face and jumping on ledges and walking like a balance beam, and stuff like that :p I was very surprised at how different the raw diet was compared to my normal vegan cooked food diet. It was like I had just been freed of a giant burden.

You get Omega-3s from the spinach and romaine. You have to eat enough though- 400g of greens per day is more than what you'd think. Greens in sufficient quantity are actually the ideal source of omega-3s providing a perfect ratio between 3s and 6s.

I do take 1000mcg of sublingual Vitamin B12 every few weeks, but this is just a precaution. B12 producing bacteria has been shown to exist in organic plants. If you stick to a vegan diet for the long term, meaning more than 3 years, it is a good idea to take B12 now and then because in the long term it is a vulnerability due to depleted soils. Daily required value of B12 is 2mcg, and the sublingual pills sold in stores give 1000mcg per pill, of which you likely absorb 50% or so. So do the math.

According to modern science on digestion, as well as ayurvedic advice that the Yogis have followed for thousands of years with the intention of supporting meditation in particular, you should try to eat your first meal 3 hours after waking. So I try to do this, of course I'm not perfect. I probably manage this 60% of my days, and the rest of them I eat sooner. Swami Kriyananda and his lineage is my primary source for Yogic advice. The Yogis broach questions that most other traditions ignore, and I use them to confirm scientific studies basically since there is so much bad science out there.

They also say you should stop eating several hours before bed, so I try to do that as well.

Due to the way we digest, it is better to eat heavier foods later in the day and after the other foods. So when I eat nuts, they are the last thing I eat in the day.

Non-green vegetables don't digest well alongside fruits, so if I eat a salad of tomatoes and carrots and stuff I try to eat them an hour or more away from eating large amounts of fruits. Green vegetables - spinach, romaine, cucumber, celery - can pretty much be eaten alongside anything and so I eat these things with everything.

My breakfast routine, I basically eat this every single day without fail, is a blended smoothie made from:

4-6 bananas
1 cucumber with skin
2 stalks celery
200g spinach

This provides about 800 calories. I try to drink this smoothie about 3 hours after waking up, but it just depends what my tasks are for the day.

Depending on how I feel, I'll cut up oranges, mangos and eat them throughout the day, or put them in smoothies, or I'll eat some other fruit if I feel like something different. Grapes and strawberries can provide some calories for instance, but not on a regular basis unless you want to break the bank :p So most of my fruit calories come from bananas, oranges, and mangoes which I eat from the hand or blend just depending how I feel.

For me personally, the blender is a necessary part of the diet, because I don't have the patience to do the amount of chewing that would be necessary to ingest this much food. Since fruits are high in water content, you are eating a much bigger weight of food. You can easily eat 10lbs of fruit in a day, whereas 10 lbs of meat for instance would be like 10000 calories, 10lbs of fruit is more like 2000 calories. To eat this much fruit is a challenge - apes spend the majority of their time chewing for instance. They pretty much just hang out and chew all day. As a human, I let my blender do the chewing for me.

Anyway there are lots of little details to fine tune the diet, but in the end it is a mistake to be an overperfectionist. Sometimes the body needs to adapt itself to suit the mind/spirit, but oftentimes simple changes in the mind produce tremendous benefits for the body. Modern people really abuse their body, and it is a major cause of the loss of spiritual vision. Eating this kind of diet instantly makes you more psychic and in tune with the things around you.

[Lorna]

wow yossarian! i'm reading your posts with my jaw dropping - much of what you write makes a lot of sense but like fairyfarm girl, putting a diet like that into practise would simply just not be practical - very interesting to read your posts though - thank you

one thing i wanted to ask - mangos - they cost a bloomin' fortune over here so i only ever buy them as a treat, but i've noticed they make my son absolutely loopy! he reacts to them so similarly to chocolate that he doesn't get them. i assumed it was fructose in them but your posts seemed to imply that it wouldn't be

anyway, what was particularly interesting was i guess i've been limiting my son's fruit intake because of said loopy-ness when he has too much sugar, but since he naturally gravitates towards fruit rather than traditional meals, i'm going to follow his lead for a little while and see how much he wants in his diet

[fairyfarmgirl]

wow yossarian! i'm reading your posts with my jaw dropping - much of what you write makes a lot of sense but like fairyfarm girl, putting a diet like that into practise would simply just not be practical - very interesting to read your posts though - thank you

one thing i wanted to ask - mangos - they cost a bloomin' fortune over here so i only ever buy them as a treat, but i've noticed they make my son absolutely loopy! he reacts to them so similarly to chocolate that he doesn't get them. i assumed it was fructose in them but your posts seemed to imply that it wouldn't be

anyway, what was particularly interesting was i guess i've been limiting my son's fruit intake because of said loopy-ness when he has too much sugar, but since he naturally gravitates towards fruit rather than traditional meals, i'm going to follow his lead for a little while and see how much he wants in his diet

This was my experience with my kiddos too. Make sure you are buying organic or wash and peel them throughly because it seems that it was the pesticides that was making my kiddos loopy.

Also, I always balance fruit with a protein.... right now it is fruit and cheese (hey it is what they will eat...no amount of cajoling would get them to budge... so when in kiddo Rome do as the the kiddos).

I also have gotten them recently to eat raw organic almonds which pack more v's and m's than cheese and although they are pricey they only have to eat about 3 and they are full.

Vitamin B's also play a part in loopy kiddos. I added a quality organic vitamin complex to their diets and now they are no longer loopy.

Also, the suppliers of fruit wax the fruit with a "food" grade wax and/or oil. Stay away from that stuff as it does the same... the Genetically Engineering crowd are very tricky heyoka's and will do all they can to hide thier dirty deeds.

My kids love Avocados and Mangos but here in the North East Sector of North America they are so pricey!!! Right now they are going for 6.00 for 3 measely avocados. Mangos are 2.50 a piece for conventionally grown and organic is 3.00 this is extremely price prohibitive for anyone but the independently wealthy. It makes me so annoyed because they have almost no overhead in raising these fruits and they pay their help less than a dollar a day... so the price setting is to make it hard on the masses and get them to eat crappy food.

So the best way for me to avoid this dilemma is to plant my own food, gather and supplement with the best food for the money that I have and pray over the food infusing it with Love before giving it to my kiddos and hubby and eating it myself. It seems to be working everyone is healthy.

Peace Pilgrim also advocated the diet that Y is advocating. She wrote about it extensively. She also wrote that it is important to eat what is given freely and to pray and infuse it with love if it is not the fruits that are optimal. You can learn more about Peace Pilgrim at www.peacepilgrim.com

fairyfarmgirl

[Lorna]

scarily expensive in scotland, but then there's all the transport costs, and to be honest i always prefer to buy local food anyway

good point about the vitamins - i've been toying with the idea of a kid's vitamin for him because of the b-vits since we're veggie too - so i'll see if that makes a difference

thanks fairyfarmgirl!

[yossarian]

For vitamins you guys might try feeding your kids green smoothies. It's a way to sneak in bitter green leaves into a delicious drink.

The basic green smoothie recipe, all blended up in a blender:

- Spinach or romaine
- Fruit of your choice - oranges, bananas, mangos, pineapple, strawberry, blueberry, blackberry, raspberry, kiwi, whatever
- a bit of water

They smoothies don't LOOK good because they are green in color, but they taste quite sugary sweet and if you have a good blender they are smooth and easy to drink. If you put in enough fruit the spinach can't be tasted. Put the smoothie in a dark glass, put a straw in it, I bet your kids would like it. If it's in a dark cup they won't be able to tell that it is green. Make sure they use a straw to drink it, since it's a smoothie. You really can't taste the greens, and the greens pack a ton of nutrition.

This is pretty much how all raw foodists get their nutrients - greens disguised by sugary fruit. Make sure they brush their teeth afterwards though, the fruit sugars are probably hard on little teeth. (Fructose and sucrose being the worst offenders which is why most raw foodists avoids high fructose/sucrose fruits. The basic fruit sugar is glucose, which is the only sugar our body uses directly anyway, making high-glucose fruits the easiest food to digest in the world.)

The danger in nuts is that they are such high fat for their tiny size, it's so very easy to eat way more nuts than you should be eating. Before I got a food-weigh-scale I had no idea how much fat I was eating from almonds, walnuts and macademias. I was eating way more than I should have been.

By the way, has anyone considered that maybe kids are supposed to be full of energy? I mean the schools put kids on ritalin cause they have too much energy, this always seemed like a crime to me. Wouldn't giving kids foods that reduce their energy be a similar thing?

[Lorna]

thanks yossarian - good idea about the smoothies

yes, i agree, energetic kids is a good thing - 2 year old being unusually hyper and naughty and then suddenly conking out fast asleep was just really weird! mango was one of the first foods i tried him with when i was weaning him actually - i thought i was imagining the loopiness at first, but nope lol!

[Clordio]

Wow these are all very interesting perspectives.

One thing that bothers me is the idea of supplementing b12. I simply hate vitamins or "enriched" foods just because it is not natural. I don't care if they are food derived or whatever, I'd much rather gather them simply from eating.

The idea of infusing love with you food, whatever it is and accepting free food jives with me too. I still live with my parents and I hate turning down dishes my mom makes simply because of meat. She puts so much love and work into these things that it feels criminal to pass them up.

So right now I'm kinda working with this idea. If you can afford it, diets high in low fructose fruits and veggies with a mix of nuts are key. But for the meager, staple foods are still acceptable especially when treated and prepared with love so as to vitalize and nourish its consumer!

Any other thoughts?

[fairyfarmgirl]

Wow these are all very interesting perspectives.

One thing that bothers me is the idea of supplementing b12. I simply hate vitamins or "enriched" foods just because it is not natural. I don't care if they are food derived or whatever, I'd much rather gather them simply from eating.

The idea of infusing love with you food, whatever it is and accepting free food jives with me too. I still live with my parents and I hate turning down dishes my mom makes simply because of meat. She puts so much love and work into these things that it feels criminal to pass them up.

So right now I'm kinda working with this idea. If you can afford it, diets high in low fructose fruits and veggies with a mix of nuts are key. But for the meager, staple foods are still acceptable especially when treated and prepared with love so as to vitalize and nourish its consumer!

Any other thoughts?

Vitamin B's must be supplemented because so much of our food is pasturized and the earth soil has been depleted. So it is sometimes necessary to supplement.

I know my kiddos are better able to cope with life now that we do supplement. My son was diagnosed with ADH and once I traced all the additives down and eliminated them from our family diet and added vitamin b's in he was no longer loopy. I am all for kiddos that are energetic and light and focused. Without focus our purpose is completely negated.

We tried to add our Vitamin B's in using sea weeds and raw cheese but it was just not enough. So we use a vitamin. Also the sea weeds and raw cheese was too expensive for our budget and getting the kiddos to eat the food was a challenge.... those picky eaters.

I tried making a raw spinach soup for the kids but they would not eat it.... No amount of cajoling would budge these kiddos. Hubby and I loved it though...

fairyfarmgirl

[Wintersun]

Interesting discussion here!

But yossarian, how come you never tried to go for a breatharianism, since you already are up to experimenting? This would be THE ultimate "diet" a human can accomplish, with some discipline.

I really was interested in this fruit diet you talked about... before I noticed I'd have to eat ...MY GOD!! 15 BANANAS A DAY!!! WOW!!

If I had more money, I'd surely give it a shot. But my God... 15 bananas

I would basically buy all the bananas in the fruit store each month, lol.

[ayadew]

Thanks everyone for your posts, it's a true joy to read them.
I also try to infuse love in my food, mostly by being grateful for All that I may have the honor to eat this particular food.

In sweden fruit/vegetables is not very pricey, 3 avocados goes for $2 or so.. This encouraged me to begin a more vegetarian diet in the first place, so I am very grateful to these low prices.
Bananas are still, well, not that cheap..!
In any case, I will attempt to try yossarians diet for a week beginning next week, and I will report my thoughts and changes.
Even if food is expensive, I believe in investing in my health, so I do not buy much stuff other than food. I also love to make food to share with my friends.

[Ali Quadir]

I'm also a veggie, and I'm interested in changes to my diet. However I'd like to read up on the science first. It's just never logical to go to extremes. And this diet is extreme. Further my grandparents each grew close to a hundred before dying, none of them had very big illnesses so what is wrong with the way my family eats?

The human body is a biome. With what we eat we should be carefull that not only do we feed our own body. But all the millions of colonies of symbionts aswell.

Our bodies are clearly adjusted to a more varied diet than what is suggested in this thread. And to me it sounds illogical that the inventor of the diet is smarter than millions of years of evolution.

So. Is there any long term research to back up this diet? Not just hunches posted in journals. Is there a name or an author to the diet? Has it been researched, is there criticism?

I'm a believer in the theory that if you vary your food and eat enough calories. Then you're eating healthy. Even if part of that food is junk food. As long as you vary enough you'll get the spectrum of required nutrients.

Any thoughts?

[yossarian]

Millions of years of evolution evolved humans to eat fruit..

Agriculture was only invented 10,000 years ago. Google "The paleolithic diet" and you'll see what I mean.

Humans did NOT evolve to eat things like grains, potatoes, and cooked food in general. For millions of years of evolution, our ancestors did not have fire. They did not have weapons. All they had was foraging for leaves, berries, fruit, nuts, and the occasional insect or small animal which they would eat raw. It was the same diet that chimps, bonobos, orangutans and gorillas tend to eat today.

It is the modern diet that is radical. The raw food diet is returning to the natural human diet.

[Wintersun]

Remember when I mentioned breatharianism (aka, living on light, prana)?

Considering this is possible to achieve, and I know second (and almost first) hand it is, you may conclude that eating is nothing more than energy transfer - and since everything is composed of same energy, it only depends how you teach your body to receive energy. So this goes BEYOND vitamins, proteins, amino acids, and everything of the sort. You basically teach your body to produce any necessary substance from the CORE (light) energy, or from any other energy source, depending on the type of your diet (like, normal food consumption)

Eating common food is ok, but goes way below breatharianism in any possible way, since with breatharianism you literally eliminate the energy loss due to food digestion (which by many, takes up to 90% bodies energy). And save up a lot of money you'd rather spend on bananas

Many breatharians sleep only a few days a week, and some even look like they're in their middle thirties, while they're over 60 (like for example Barbara Moore, who died in a car accident).

[ayadew]

Perhaps a perfectly balanced human could live on prana, but those which I have seen preaching for this are really not.. they were quite obviously only interested in gaining money from seekers, or being tricksters in general. One even spoke of that the only thing one should consume was Coca Cola Light in plastic cups which had an important vibration which humans needed, for it was pure made of pure Light/Prana. I wish much love and harmony to this individual, for she may need it..

I do not oppose this idea of breatharianism, and I believe it's possible, I simply believe those who can genuinely achieve this are ready to leave this density at their whim. It's alike to what Ra said.. a perfectly balanced entity can move a mountain, ie by intention do anything it wishes. To transform pure energy into nutrition is a feat on this scale.

[Ali Quadir]

Millions of years of evolution evolved humans to eat fruit..

Agriculture was only invented 10,000 years ago. Google "The paleolithic diet" and you'll see what I mean.

I'm sorry but that's not true, we ate what was available, fruit, roots, nuts, meat of insects slugs mollusks, fish and land animals. Even cadavers we found.

Humans did NOT evolve to eat things like grains, potatoes, and cooked food in general. For millions of years of evolution, our ancestors did not have fire. They did not have weapons. All they had was foraging for leaves, berries, fruit, nuts, and the occasional insect or small animal which they would eat raw. It was the same diet that chimps, bonobos, orangutans and gorillas tend to eat today.

You're right here. We only learned to cook food at a late stage. But chimps, bonobos, orangutans and gorillas all eat meat occasionally. Bonobo's for example are known to actively hunt for meat. The biologist Stuart Kauffman studied bonobo's and reports that part of his study group were regular hunters. And those that did in his case were healthier and fatter than those who didn't.

I'm not making this up, check the facts. You are correct if you state we ate mostly fruit. And fruit remains important in our diet. But the claim that we'll only prosper on a fruit diet. Well I'd like to see that claim supported with evidence. You see it's a big choice. If I am going to make it I need more than your conviction. I'll need my own.

Wintersun, have you tried breathairianism? I have. And I've read a lot about it. I can't support that theory with indisputable factual evidence and it didn't work well for me. So many who claimed it have tried and failed to prove it. I could find no single person that I could really believe in. Maybe later. But right now I think we're not attuned enough. And I doubt we will become attuned by starving ourselves.

[yossarian]

But chimps, bonobos, orangutans and gorillas all eat meat occasionally.

If you read my post closely, you would see that I stated exactly this. The diet we evolved for is about 80% fruit, with the final 20% divided between leaves, roots, insects, and the occasional RAW meat.

You didn't read my posts very closely. The "Paleolithic diet" includes a SMALL amount of raw meat. However, I personally exclude the meat since it is not necessary for survival and contains low vibrations.

But the claim that we'll only prosper on a fruit diet.

Again, I never claimed this. You are putting words into my mouth. In my opinion, the diet we evolved for is the paleolithic diet, which includes RAW meat. NOT COOKED.

The raw vegan diet is a modification of the paleolithic diet to exclude meat because spiritual aspirants have discovered over thousands of years that, if meat can be avoided, it should be. This is where the ayurvedic tradition comes in, where channeling comes in, etc.

Humans will thrive on the paleolithic diet, and spiritual aspirants/meditators/initiates thrive on the paleolithic diet as well with the modification of excluding the negative tamasic vibes of dead animals.

Breathetarianism - the problem with this is that it is not based on the breath. There are many saints throughout history who have survived without food. Theresa Neumann for instance was a Christian Saint in Germany who didn't eat, and there are many many Yogis who lives on prana. But they did it by very advanced meditation practices, not just by breathing deeply, lol.

Human beings do not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes out of the mouth of the One Infinite Creator. This is what Theresa Neumann stuck around on earth to demonstrate, apparently. And I do believe she was advanced to the point where she could have left at any time.

[Wintersun]

Wintersun, have you tried breathairianism? I have. And I've read a lot about it. I can't support that theory with indisputable factual evidence and it didn't work well for me. So many who claimed it have tried and failed to prove it. I could find no single person that I could really believe in. Maybe later. But right now I think we're not attuned enough. And I doubt we will become attuned by starving ourselves.

I have achieved quite a lot with working on it (reduced my food intake at least 4 times!!), but my lack of discipline in energizing exercises made me fall back and regroup for a while Nothing serious, just a little energy build up before I continue where I've stooped.

And actually I do know a person who made it pretty far! He ate about every 10 days last time I talked to him, and many I knew supported this statement. He's not preaching or something, so there really is no reason he would make up something like that. He might have fully achieved it by now, but I haven't talked to him for a while.

So yes, according to many testimonies from various suorces, about many people, this phenomena really is true. And even perfectly makes sense, if you consider or the data, including the fact that everything is ONE, and made up of same material on a quantum level.

I would reccommend anyone who wants to further study this, to check out Joachim M Werdins book "Lifestyle without food", which is freely available for download on his website in PDF format.

Dino

---

Breathetarianism - the problem with this is that it is not based on the breath. There are many saints throughout history who have survived without food. Theresa Neumann for instance was a Christian Saint in Germany who didn't eat, and there are many many Yogis who lives on prana. But they did it by very advanced meditation practices, not just by breathing deeply, lol.

Human beings do not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes out of the mouth of the One Infinite Creator. This is what Theresa Neumann stuck around on earth to demonstrate, apparently. And I do believe she was advanced to the point where she could have left at any time.

Lol, of course it has nothing to do with breathing It's just what it's called.

I do find your idea of "fruitarian" diet quite convincing actually, since it appears to be true as you say that various sources have confirmed that. That can't be coincidence, and I see no reason why not to trust you everything can be easily checked and verified.

The last source I'd ever take full consideration is mainstream science, since it appears to be more manipulated than Christianity in dark ages, lol. So, alternative science is always my number one choice, if properly argumented.

Dino

[Ali Quadir]

Yossarian, I apologize, I seem to have totally dropped the ball there. I can't make anything of what I said. And I have missed very essential parts of your words. I think I should have gone to bed instead of hit that post button...

@Wintersun, we had a family friend who ate one cracker with a slice of cheese per day, and a few spoons of vegetables in the evening. She did cleaning work and was very thin but also very healthy. She had no spiritual aspirations other than going to church on sundays, she just did not like to eat.

I will check out Joachims book. I still like the idea, intuitively it completely resonates, but last time I checked I could not bridge it to reality.

I did one "Jump" to see what would happen. After 3 days without food I wasn't grumpy or weak, but I felt like I was living in a fog. I broke off the experiment because a friend needed someone to carry his furniture up 4 flights of stairs and I had this idea that even if I was not fainting now I should probably not push it. Apart from the second day hunger the experience wasn't very difficult I didn't like the fog though.

[Wintersun]

Ouch, dude, this was a totally wrong approach! You can't just STOP like that. It needs to be GRADUAL. Let me summarize the overall concept I've gathered thus far, based on what I've read and based on my own experiences..

Actually its quite simple, lol. Eat only as much as your organism ASKS FOR. No more, no less. And, while doing so, MOST CERTAINLY do the energizing exercises (quite similar to meditating, actually.. even easier!). Don't be a wise-ass like me and think you can do it without these exercises, just by gradually reducing the food intake amount.

So, with the exercises, and eating only as much as your body needs. your body will easily start to need less and less food.

The part "only as much as your body needs" needs to be given more thought.. You must realize that your body is most certainly addicted to food. So, you need to eat slowly, and every few seconds check if this is enough.

Sometimes when you're hungry, try to wait and see if it will go away. If it does, than it was just another addicted habit.

So thats about it!

So, let me summarize once again!

1. eat NO MORE / NO LESS than you REALLY (refering to habits and addiction) REALLY need to
2. DO the !"#$%!$%$ damn exercises

(gosh, I really feel like I was talking to myself up there, so don't take it too hard )

[ayadew]

Hello Wintersun. I agree with that if you eat less, you will adapt, and the body will absorb more of the food you give. As I begun to eat more vegetables, I've needed less calories per day.
Hunger does not necessarily mean that you need food. It's simply that the body expects food. One can train the body to crave less food.

If we all learned this and cooperated fully our planet could sustain so many harmonious and satisfied humans and animals.

My friends, to eat better and buy the food which may seem expensive is also a service, for you bring down the prices as the demand increases (to a limit, of course).
If we all ate more vegetables the grocery stores are forced to buy more, and replace all the foul food filled with chemicals for none would buy them.
Naturally, the best thing is to grow your own food, yet this is not a possible alternative for some (including me)