Why would the Creator elect to create suffering for ITself?

[unity100]

Hi Unity,

It seems to me that you define "success" of the Logos within 3D to be the speed with which mind/body/spirit complexes progress through 3D while in the Logos' domain. That is to say, if there is a small harvest, then you appear to equate that with "failure".

i dont myself define it as such. as what we can understand from Ra's comments, there being no harvest in the first cycle, only 250 over 4 billion in 2nd, and, circa 1980, there seeming to be little percentage prospects despite all those efforts of everyone (that much effort being spent is another important point - it means higher harvest numbers are desired), means that, it is not an acceptable outcome to have little to none harvest.

if we add to this the fact that a planet blew away, and another was rendered uninhabitable, and venus is, for whatever reason, is uninhabitable too, this makes a grim situation.

Alternately, I propose that the measure of success within a Logos is both qualitative and quantitative. That is to say, there is equally high a level of concern (if not perhaps more) on the quality and variety of experiences shared with the One Infinite Creator, and the speed with which the progress is accomplished.

that doesnt seem to be the case.

first, remember that, ra mentions that the entities who were advanced and conscious enough to be able to see entire existence as a single being, are able to go wherever they want.

in addition, we are told that everything has the same blueprint for existence. (ie, mind, body, spirit concepts, chakras etc, whatever fundamentals lie under these probably).

these seemingly irrelevant information actually tie up.

first, it means that there is a repeating pattern everywhere, second it means that, all existence is a single being. this would mean that, if all existence is a single being, or like it, all its counterparts, having the same basic fundamentals, would repeat that.

where do we end up with this ?

universes, galaxies, solar systems, planets, up to atoms are probably all repeating the same pattern, in different forms. ie, they are all 'beings' that have certain characteristics, nature, and functions and mechanisms.

therefore, if we take a planet, or a solar system, or a galaxy like a being, and see its densities as chakras, energy centers, we come to an important point :

it would be important to have balanced chakras and activity in those chakras, if, a planet was like an entity. and it is, because it gains society complex situation and becomes an entity, at early 4th and gains a character. (so i remember from Ra).

now. what picture we have in front of us ?

1 planet blown away, 2 planets dont have any activity in their 3rd density. both of them have probably VERY basic 2d activity, through maybe base microbes, deep underground. it is an imbalanced situation.

another has a lot of 3d activity, but, may not be producing sufficient graduates to populate it, and there may be much more coming from other planets than this planet's own, to populate it.

even if all is one and same, it would mean that this particular planet, (becoming an entity in early 4) wont be expressing its own characteristic strongly with its own graduates which came from 1d all the way to 4th.

in short, it is a lack of manifestation of the character of a certain entity. that entity's particular nature, in its own way.

its not desirable.

The ability to make progress is certainly of concern, but I would propose that even with the thick veil of our 3D existence, the mind/body/spirit complexes herein are still progressing much more quickly than before the veil. It appears that this Logos is willing to use wanderers (both positive and negative, I think) to help direct the souls toward harvestability at the end of the cycle. Seems like a logical approach to me.

they are progressing much quickly ? they havent been able to produce any graduates, bar 250 out of 4 bil, and we have been told that there was going to be a small harvest, despite all efforts.

'quickly' word seems misplaced here. also i would like to remind you of maldek, in regard to results of thick veil.

I like to compare 3D existence behind the veil to the creation of a complex computer game. If it is easy to create, then it is not very interesting to play. The harder it is to create, the more interesting it is to play. The thicker the veil and the greater the free will allocated to the individual, the more time is required to create the game, and the greater the experiences of the ultimate player of the game (i.e. the One Infinite Creator). Creating great things takes time. The One Infinite creator has infinite (sorry Quantum) patience.

yes, and, despite all polish, it is bland like world of warcraft, or any other game. because, the connection to each entity's own subconscious was severed, entities are not even able to follow their own motives with their own power, and instead continuing a forced existence because they are made do so. results, are in front of us.

If 4D is typically on the order of 30 million years, then of what consequence is even four or five 75,000 year major cycles within 3D? Given the quality and variety of the experiences (and the likelihood that this additional 3D experience pays returns in faster progression in later densities), it would seem to me that the thicker veil, and greater grant of free will, is quite likely a very successful experiment.

Ultimately, it is very much like a project management challenge of trying to allocate available resources optimally to achieve a quality, timely, cost effective result. I think that the final cost/benefit analysis for this Logos cannot be computed until the m/b/s complexes that progressed through it have finished their journey back to 8D.

Love and Light,

3D Sunset

the consequence, is in the chakras of a given entity/body. if, 3d takes 75,000 years, and 4d takes 30,000,000, or if, enough do not make it to 4d from 3d in a sufficient amount of time to do it, it may offset the energy balance of the given entity. be it a planet, be it a solar system, be it a galaxy, or universe.

[βαθμιαίος]

You don't think there is intense seeking here on earth now? You don't think our experiences here are high-quality and varied?

Those are the reasons Ra gave for the veil: catalyze seeking and offer the Creator quality and variety in Its experience of Itself. I think it's been a highly successful experiment.

[unity100]

no i dont think there is intense seeking on earth. a whopping majority of the population seems still involved in their day to day affairs and their daily lives, even despite a lot of difficulties and whatnot.

had it been a highly successful experiment, there would be more than 250 graduates at 2nd cycle's end. and, we wouldnt be told that 'despite efforts of all your teachers and wanderers, the harvest is going to be small'.

[βαθμιαίος]

You are judging success by numbers.

[unity100]

yes. because, we are told that, 'despite efforts of all your teachers and wanderers, the harvest is going to be small'.

[βαθμιαίος]

But we are also told, "The harvesting is not yet, thus, estimation is meaningless."

[unity100]

yes, technically thus. we are also told that, entire planet could polarize in a meaningful moment, with chances being slim, but not none.

however, it is as you see.

[βαθμιαίος]

It may not be quite as we see. "By the, shall we say, time that the mind begins its appreciation of catalyst, that catalyst has been filtered through the veil and in some cases much is veiled in the most apparently clear perception."

There is another point, though, which is that numbers may not be the most accurate way to judge success or failure of the Logos's plan. "If one is illuminated, are not all illuminated?"

[Lavazza]

Hey Quantum and friends,

What a terrific read this thread has been. It took me about an hour to read it all... pure joy. Please continue, Quantum, with your threads of such open ended and thought encouraging nature.

I have a thought that may tie in well to the concept of suffering, and if there is merit to this thought as I think there may be, there could be interesting implications for our collective understandings. I can reduce it to a question, that being: "What's the hurry?" As I recall from reading through the LOO books, Ra described the conditions prior to the veiling as extremely sluggish at the 3rd density stage of development. Because it was known that all is one, there was little impetus to polarize strongly in one direction or the other. But, but, but... there is an implication in this that a shorter amount of time spent in 3rd density is some how more desirable than a longer time (or less number of 3rd d. cycles being better than more). But... why?

If I were to not graduate to either camp of service at the end of this cycle, or at the end of the next 10,000 cycles, would it make much difference? What would happen to my soul, surely my cosmic batteries will not expire? Or am I in some way racing to keep up with the lifespan of the galactic logos, hoping to have evolved before it "dies" at the end of it's long, tens of billions of years long life? I would probably be transferred to some other galaxy I should suppose, but if I am determined to persist in my folly until the end of that galaxy, what then?

I'm moving slightly off the rails of the threads subject, but I find it peripherally relevant in that the veiling, and subsequent suffering (I agree with your assessment, 3D S.) seems to imply that we should move it along in at least a somewhat faster way than is possible. And if we are correct so far, I think this must be an incredibly important reason. Please let me know what you think!

Also,

Repeating this mental exercise over and over does a strange thing too: it increases flow. Things get easy. Suffering gets smaller. Since you begin to “decode” smaller and smaller catalyst (why did I cut my finger?) you get the message sooner and sooner. And thus you get to avoid the escalation that is done to get your attention.

Ricdaw, when I read your post (#11), and especially the above quoted text I felt a strong resonance. What you have described has certainly been my experience as well. When you can discern early and learn what it is you are trying to teach yourself, you can 'nib it in the bud' so to say and eliminate greater suffering. Of course as fallible 3rd density souls I'm not sure that many will eliminate ALL suffering from their lives, but we can perhaps eliminate the need to experience most of it. Another quote comes to mind, from who I cannot remember. But it goes something like "How do you tell if you have already completed your life's work? If you're still living you haven't, yet."

Thanks so much for this riveting discussion, I think these and others are what really make this place so amazing.

Love and Light, beaucoup!
~Lavazza

[Quantum]

Dear 3D. What wonderful considerations you've offered. Forgive me for my lack of speed in responding, but I've been away with the important matters and tasks of reveling in play at the beach.

I believe that the lesson to be learned from suffering is one of atonement. In our Judeo/Christian/Islamic (JCI did you call it), traditions, the term atonement is interpreted to mean spiritual restitution for sins. To me, atonement is the process of being more "at one" with the creator and hence all of the co-creators we may have intentionally or unintentionally harmed (or caused to suffer).

I have always found the term, concept, and even vibratory sound complex of the word "atonement" to be one that rings with melodic resonance, as though literally in tune, and likened to the the musicality of the spheres and the plucked chord spoken to in the threads from a Ra quote. AT-ONE-MENT. Well said 3D.

* Last question: Might the minimization of suffering in ones life then, if any of the above is true, be akin to the finely wrought mask that our dear friend βαθμιαίος as poetically proposed, and as such, also be likened to a finely wrought instrument created by ourselves to gauge where we may be at with respect to our lessons?

Indeed, my friend, indeed.

maldek, is no more. mars, is uninhabitable. (and hence has no 3d activity).

I will admit that a search "may" produce a definitive answer, but without having availed myself to same, allow me instead to simply rush to the question by as simply asking, is Mars uninhabitable by any density, and thus devoid of all life? By your question, is 3D the baseline for establishing life, if not success, not just with respect to Mars, but any other planet in the universe?

because flows are disrupted, spirit part of complex is hampered. there is strong mind, there is the means to use it, and hence, a lot of technology and power, lacking the inspiration and guidance/direction/desires of spirit, comes into being.its like a powder keg. it explodes randomly. it doesnt even explode negatively. if it was, it would at least be having a direction.

The explanation above, as are many of your views, is spoken to in terms of mechanics, and as such is indeed a superb explanation. It then perhaps however misses the mark entirely in its conclusion by not taking into account indeed the potential for explosions, powder kegs, and blocked flows as in fact being part and parcel of the experiment which was designed and planned for exactly as such. You speak to these blockages as though they are shortcomings and poor designs of the Logos, if not in fact failures, much like an engineer who having designed an obstacle course for physical work-out, fun, and pleasure, complete with water holes, mud holes, broad jumps, high jumps, and monkey bars, failed in his design by not making it a straight running course instead. Your work-out course certainly would have been a less expensive course in construction, and one with no flow blockages. However, your design, although with zero blockages intended in its blue-prints by design and purpose, may have, shall we say, not worked out the same muscle groups as a whole, not to speak of cardio functions, lung capacity improvements, and overall improvement in agility as well as intellectual problem solving as regards the obstacles, powder kegs and resultant explosions in question, which are indeed avoidable as a result of taking your straighter course, but alas would have been a far more inferior one as a result. Your courses, shall we say, never would have approached the intent for overall "Peak Performance" on all levels, as was designed by the Logos.

I like to compare 3D existence behind the veil to the creation of a complex computer game. If it is easy to create, then it is not very interesting to play. The harder it is to create, the more interesting it is to play. The thicker the veil and the greater the free will allocated to the individual, the more time is required to create the game, and the greater the experiences of the ultimate player of the game (i.e. the One Infinite Creator). Creating great things takes time. The One Infinite creator has infinite (sorry Quantum) patience.

A-h-h-h-h...but dear sir, if I may be so presumptuous as to speak for the originator of said "Infinity Philosophy", you fail to take into account that in Infinity the One Infinite Creator is also Infinitely impatient..........

notwithstanding that this too must also mean that IT also is infinitely wrathful, infinitely malevolent, infinitely ugly, infinitely nasty, and filled with infinite jealousy, scorn, judgment, and infinitely filled with condemnation as well. "IT" is after all Infinitely Schizophrenic.

If I were to not graduate to either camp of service at the end of this cycle, or at the end of the next 10,000 cycles, would it make much difference? What would happen to my soul, surely my cosmic batteries will not expire? Or am I in some way racing to keep up with the lifespan of the galactic logos, hoping to have evolved before it "dies" at the end of it's long, tens of billions of years long life? I would probably be transferred to some other galaxy I should suppose, but if I am determined to persist in my folly until the end of that galaxy, what then?

What an excellent point of consideration Lavazza. H-m-m-m-m...we have infinity to progress, but the Galactic Logoi and One Infinite Creator infinitely conspire against us nevertheless wishing for us to move infinitely faster than we do, this in a vacuum where there is no time?

It begs the next question, shall I/we remain forevermore timelessly confused, always approaching the mystery of infinity, but never a chance for understanding IT?

...L/L

~ Q ~

[Lavazza]

It begs the next question, shall I/we remain forevermore timelessly confused, always approaching the mystery of infinity, but never a chance for understanding IT?

This is a valid consideration whilst considering Infinity in to the equation (so sorry to do so, nevertheless... ) Consider if you will, Zeno's paradox.

In order that one may walk from point A to point B, that entity must first walk to the halfway point between A and B. But before reaching the halfway point, he must walk to the halfway point of the halfway point of the halfway point... ad infinitum. Similarly, for the special "infinity clock" to count the time of one second, it must first count the halfway point to that second, and the halfway of the halfway point, ad infinitum. In short, the entity walking or the clock ticking can never reach it's destination by the virtue of an infinite distance to traverse. So how can we expect to reach the point of infinity and merge with all that is? And yet, we see the entity does reach point B, and the clock does count the second. So the paradox is sort of a humorous one. It makes no sense that some things are the way they are, but they are that way regardless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_paradoxes

Zeno's paradoxes are a set of problems generally thought to have been devised by Zeno of Elea to support Parmenides's doctrine that "all is one" and that, contrary to the evidence of our senses, the belief in plurality and change is mistaken, and in particular that motion is nothing but an illusion. It is usually assumed, based on Plato's Parmenides 128c-d, that Zeno took on the project of creating these paradoxes because other philosophers had created paradoxes against Parmenides's view. Thus Zeno can be interpreted as saying that to assume there is plurality is even more absurd than assuming there is only "the One" (Parmenides 128d).

~Lavazza

[unity100]

There is another point, though, which is that numbers may not be the most accurate way to judge success or failure of the Logos's plan. "If one is illuminated, are not all illuminated?"

that, and the various statements of concern and information about attempts in trying to increase the harvest on this planet, contradict.

had illuminating one, would mean illuminating all, why all the plans, incarnations, pyramids, quarantines, this that. totally leaving aside the logos-level changes to 'encourage' seeking.

just one, would do enough.

but apparently it doesnt.

.............................

this universe is not infinity. what is experiencing experiences in this universe, or octave, is not infinity. it is a part of infinity, hence, it is not infinite. actually, it is not even infinite intelligence at all. its only a part of infinite intelligence. infinite intelligence, is present in, and is, all octaves and what exists within, at the minimum.

therefore, nothing happening here can be 'perfect', nothing happening here can mean everything. there are mistakes made, lessons learned, things perfected. this repeats in every octave.

this, is probably just one of infinite focuses of consciousness. and an entire octave comes to being from it.

[βαθμιαίος]

I have a thought that may tie in well to the concept of suffering, and if there is merit to this thought as I think there may be, there could be interesting implications for our collective understandings. I can reduce it to a question, that being: "What's the hurry?" As I recall from reading through the LOO books, Ra described the conditions prior to the veiling as extremely sluggish at the 3rd density stage of development. Because it was known that all is one, there was little impetus to polarize strongly in one direction or the other. But, but, but... there is an implication in this that a shorter amount of time spent in 3rd density is some how more desirable than a longer time (or less number of 3rd d. cycles being better than more). But... why?

Interesting question, Lavazza. As I understand it, the reason is that the Logoi were trying to design the richest experience possible for the Creator. I posted this quote in another thread, but it seems relevant here, too:

90.16 Questioner: What was the ultimate objective of this Logos in designing the archetypical mind as It did?

Ra: I am Ra. Each Logos desires to create a more eloquent expression of experience of the Creator by the Creator. The archetypical mind is intended to heighten this ability to express the Creator in patterns more like the fanned peacock’s tail, each facet of the Creator vivid, upright, and shining with articulated beauty.

Contrast this with Ra's description of third-density experience before the veil:

82.18 Questioner: Then prior to the forgetting process there was no concept of anything but service-to-others polarization. What sort of societies and experiences in third-density were created and evolved in this condition?

Ra: I am Ra. It is our perception that such conditions created the situation of a most pallid experiential nexus in which lessons were garnered with the relative speed of the turtle to the cheetah.

There does seem to be a value judgment here: vivid is better than pallid, but I guess it's one I agree with.

If I were to not graduate to either camp of service at the end of this cycle, or at the end of the next 10,000 cycles, would it make much difference? What would happen to my soul, surely my cosmic batteries will not expire? Or am I in some way racing to keep up with the lifespan of the galactic logos, hoping to have evolved before it "dies" at the end of it's long, tens of billions of years long life? I would probably be transferred to some other galaxy I should suppose, but if I am determined to persist in my folly until the end of that galaxy, what then?

I've wondered about this, too. Ra says that the "absorption into the One Creator continues until all the infinity of creations have attained sufficient spiritual mass in order that all form once again the great central sun, if you would so imagine it, of the intelligent infinity awaiting potentiation by free will." What happens at that point to those who are still in first, second, third, etc. densities? Or does the coalescence wait until all have attained sufficient spiritual mass (which Ra associates elsewhere with reaching the gateway density)?

[Lavazza]

I've wondered about this, too. Ra says that the "absorption into the One Creator continues until all the infinity of creations have attained sufficient spiritual mass in order that all form once again the great central sun, if you would so imagine it, of the intelligent infinity awaiting potentiation by free will." What happens at that point to those who are still in first, second, third, etc. densities? Or does the coalescence wait until all have attained sufficient spiritual mass (which Ra associates elsewhere with reaching the gateway density)?

We're totally in the deep end here without much to cling to for support, so we can only speculate. I'm not sure either... For instance how can the last bit of 1st density consciousness in an octave evolve to 2nd density if there is no more 1st density material to use as a school house (planet)? Then again, we know that black holes are a cosmic gateway back to the Creator, so perhaps this is our clue. 1st density material is continuously being sucked in to black holes, i.e. being harvested. So what's going on there? Is it just the physical material (vehicle) being harvested, or the consciousness therein? And if so, why didn't it instead elect to go through the densities rather than go home without 'passing go'? I suspect there is a line of inquiry here that Don might have gotten around to eventually, but sadly did not.

L&L, ~Lavazza

[Quantum]

It begs the next question, shall I/we remain forevermore timelessly confused, always approaching the mystery of infinity, but never a chance for understanding IT?

This is a valid consideration whilst considering Infinity in to the equation (so sorry to do so, nevertheless... ) Consider if you will, Zeno's paradox.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_paradoxes
Zeno's paradoxes are a set of problems ... that "all is one" and that, contrary to the evidence of our senses, the belief in plurality and change is mistaken, and in particular that motion is nothing but an illusion.

As always Lavazza, great stuff(ing) and "breadcrumbs" added to the mix that the dough may rise. Would you consider considering that the Zeno paradox might also apply to thought, versus the physicality of movement and motion alone? In other words, are my thoughts also illusion, and therefore likewise by Zeno's paradox as motionless, so to speak, as is movement, and thus we've never thought a thought at all? The question is as facetious as it is serious. Let us therefore suspend both so that we may address either ....seriously. The illusion of me thinking is simply an illusion too, given there in fact is no me, in spite of the me thinking I think, whilst truly only being a fractal within the hologram of the One Infinite Creator (OIC) who is in fact really thinking making ITself believe me believe I am. Therefore I do not think...but alas as a result of the fact that I do, I am...but not me as much as wholly IT.

I have a thought that may tie in well to the concept of suffering, and if there is merit to this thought as I think there may be, there could be interesting implications for our collective understandings. I can reduce it to a question, that being: "What's the hurry?" As I recall from reading through the LOO books, Ra described the conditions prior to the veiling as extremely sluggish at the 3rd density stage of development. Because it was known that all is one, there was little impetus to polarize strongly in one direction or the other. But, but, but... there is an implication in this that a shorter amount of time spent in 3rd density is some how more desirable than a longer time (or less number of 3rd d. cycles being better than more). But... why?

Interesting question, Lavazza. As I understand it, the reason is that the Logoi were trying to design the richest experience possible for the Creator.

If I were to not graduate to either camp of service at the end of this cycle, or at the end of the next 10,000 cycles, would it make much difference? What would happen to my soul, surely my cosmic batteries will not expire? Or am I in some way racing to keep up with the lifespan of the galactic logos, hoping to have evolved before it "dies" at the end of it's long, tens of billions of years long life? I would probably be transferred to some other galaxy I should suppose, but if I am determined to persist in my folly until the end of that galaxy, what then?

I've wondered about this, too. Ra says that the "absorption into the One Creator continues until all the infinity of creations have attained sufficient spiritual mass in order that all form once again the great central sun, if you would so imagine it, of the intelligent infinity awaiting potentiation by free will." What happens at that point to those who are still in first, second, third, etc. densities? Or does the coalescence wait until all have attained sufficient spiritual mass (which Ra associates elsewhere with reaching the gateway density)?

Very interesting indeed. If I may direct you to have a peek at spero's found quote on my continuing quest of questions found on the thread 2nd LOO Question: Creation:

Hey Quantum,
With regard to some of the questions you raised in your last post, I present the following quote hoping you will find in it some of the answers you seek, though it appears not even Ra is sure about it all.

Quote:28.15 Questioner: Are you saying then that there are an infinite number of octaves of densities one through eight?

Ra: I am Ra. We wish to establish that we are truly humble messengers of the Law of One. We can speak to you of our experiences and our understandings and teach/learn in limited ways. However, we cannot speak in firm knowledge of all the creations. We know only that they are infinite. We assume an infinite number of octaves.

However, it has been impressed upon us by our own teachers that there is a mystery-clad unity of creation in which all consciousness periodically coalesces and again begins. Thus we can only say we assume an infinite progression though we understand it to be cyclical in nature and, as we have said, clad in mystery.

So, apparently All coalesces upon itself to begin anew. If IT is all the OIC from start to finish, then truly there is no need for angst in any form or manner. Whether I remained a rock or roach for an eternity, versus was created as a Galactic Logos from the outset, I will coalesce with ALL into the void with All to simply begin anew as a result for never having been my own Illusion to begin with, but in fact the OIC's.

Rocks and Roaches, Logoi and Laggards, all are one. Whats the Angst?

I am IT?

A-h-e-m...I mean, I am IT!

Very zenly yours,

~ Q ~

[Quantum]

Allow me to also pluck from a past thread a fascinating video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...3626430789# to this business of 'Zeno's Paradox' vis-a-vis 'Quantums Predicament' that has at its core phenomenal similarity and as such bears worth reconsidering and sharing, this from post # 13 from Namaste on the thread "2nd LOO Question:Creation"

Namaste wrote: All is light, and light has some extremely interesting properties when viewed from light's perspective. Watch this excellent talk, recently shared on this forum...

The Primacy of Consciousness

You may skip to the 45th minute if time is of the essence, Peter Russel discusses the nature of light in a very concise manner. In short; light is in all places, at all times. The same applies to consciousness / God.

~ Q ~

[unity100]

I've wondered about this, too. Ra says that the "absorption into the One Creator continues until all the infinity of creations have attained sufficient spiritual mass in order that all form once again the great central sun, if you would so imagine it, of the intelligent infinity awaiting potentiation by free will." What happens at that point to those who are still in first, second, third, etc. densities? Or does the coalescence wait until all have attained sufficient spiritual mass (which Ra associates elsewhere with reaching the gateway density)?

this is an important question.

first of all, infinite intelligence, in order to be one level below infinity as it is, has to be present in all octaves.

therefore, it cant be a part of this octave alone. cannot go from octave to octave.

the great central sun of this creation, octave, therefore, has to be a focus of infinite intelligence that is experiencing octaves.

but, here, we are told that, all coalesce in the central sun, that is intelligent infinity awaiting potentiation by free will ...

this brings even more important questions. then, is infinite intelligence, something that goes through octaves ?

if that's so, that would be a very limited, finite intelligent infinity.

[Quantum]

I've wondered about this, too. Ra says that the "absorption into the One Creator continues until all the infinity of creations have attained sufficient spiritual mass in order that all form once again the great central sun, if you would so imagine it, of the intelligent infinity awaiting potentiation by free will." What happens at that point to those who are still in first, second, third, etc. densities? Or does the coalescence wait until all have attained sufficient spiritual mass (which Ra associates elsewhere with reaching the gateway density)?

this is an important question. first of all, infinite intelligence, in order to be one level below infinity as it is, has to be present in all octaves.
therefore, it cant be a part of this octave alone. cannot go from octave to octave.the great central sun of this creation, octave, therefore, has to be a focus of infinite intelligence that is experiencing octaves.
but, here, we are told that, all coalesce in the central sun, that is intelligent infinity awaiting potentiation by free will ...this brings even more important questions. then, is infinite intelligence, something that goes through octaves ? if that's so, that would be a very limited, finite intelligent infinity.

obfuscation:to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information;to confuse, bewilder, or stupefy.

The full quote by Ra appears below. It might be suggested that several points with regard to your interpretation above may be said to perhaps be missing. We seem to infinitely return to what may be the misunderstanding of what "INFINITY" means. You infinitely suggest that Infinite Intelligence is one level below Infinity. How is this possible in an Infinity where in fact everything is still ONE, and furthermore is still One before distortion has even taken place? By your definition, INFINITY is immediately divided before distortion has taken place. Becoming aware was never a Ra definition of distortion. Becoming aware preceded distortion (levels). How then may there be levels before levels (distortions) have even been created? Given that it is our exclusive objective to further our understanding of the LOO as a study group, it surely does not seem unreasonable to please, just once, give one single reference to this concept as contained nominally, or even in fact vaguely, as supported in, or peripherally by, the LOO.

If becoming aware is a level below being unaware, I am open to hear your explanation. If levels need be used by your interpretation it may as likely if not better be suggested that becoming aware is indeed a level above being unaware. A man unaware is a man as much as is a man aware still a man. If INFINITY Unaware is INFINITY, how is it then that INFINITY Aware is not also INFINITY? Are you suggesting that INFINITY needs be unaware, and presumably Infinitely and always Unaware to be Infinity?

Is it more impossible to believe that The One Infinite Creator before becoming aware was simply unaware, and that as such the One Infinite Creator by virtue of an unobfuscated definition is now simply "INFINITY AWARE?" How is it that "Infinity Unaware", that becomes "Aware," which is still nonetheless All there is, is a level divided? Rather and instead now aware, IT, shall we say, takes on a name called "The One Infinite Creator." It needn't be so obfuscated as it is continually presented. INFINITY Unaware never created anything before it did, but now has, and as such, is The One INFINITE Creator. It is more simple than it is complicated out to be. See the Ra quote below for not only the full quote, but perhaps a better understanding:

40.1 Questioner: I thought that I would make a statement and let you correct it. I’m trying to make a simple model of the portion of the universe that we find ourselves in. Starting with the sub-Logos, our sun, we have white light emanating from this which is made up of the frequencies ranging from the red to the violet. I am assuming that this white light then contains the experiences through all of the densities and as we go into the eighth density we go into a black hole which becomes, on the other side, another Logos or sun and starts another octave of experience. Can you comment on this part of my statement?

Ra: I am Ra. We can comment upon this statement to an extent. The concept of the white light of the sub-Logos being prismatically separated and later, at the final chapter, being absorbed again is basically correct. However, there are subtleties involved which are more than semantic.

The white light which emanates and forms the articulated sub-Logos has its beginning in what may be metaphysically seen as darkness. The light comes into that darkness and transfigures it, causing the chaos to organize and become reflective or radiant. Thus the dimensions come into being.

Conversely, the blackness of the black hole, metaphysically speaking, is a concentration of white light being systematically absorbed once again into the One Creator. Finally, this absorption into the One Creator continues until all the infinity of creations have attained sufficient spiritual mass in order that all form once again the great central sun, if you would so imagine it, of the intelligent infinity awaiting potentiation by free will. Thus the transition of the octave is a process which may be seen to enter into timelessness of unimaginable nature. To attempt to measure it by your time measures would be useless.

Therefore, the concept of moving through the black hole of the ultimate spiritual gravity well and coming immediately into the next octave misses the subconcept or corollary of the portion of this process which is timeless.

Notice here that the white light of all rays is absorbed into "The One Infinite Creator" and not into INFINITY. Further notice that all of absorption occurs into "The One Infinite Creator until all the infinity of creations have obtained spiritual mass in order to form once again. The lessor never absorbs the greater. The greater absorbs the lessor. But in this case the point is moot as the greaters are one and the same. The One Infinite Creator absorbs all of infinity as ITS creations, given that all of infinity is absorbed into the One Infinite Creator, and not that The One Infinite Creator is absorbed or is a by-product of Infinity. By your definition Ra would have stated that when all coalesces and is absorbed, that All, inclusive of The One Infinite Creator, would be absorbed into INFINITY. In fact it is stated and given exactly as the opposite of your understanding.

In closing, it further seems one might also deduce that there is in fact "One Great Central Sun" for all of creation, as distinguished from the infinite number of central suns of the galaxies, aka, the infinite number of Logoi.

Also, given that Infinite Intelligence preceded creation, and is part of the One Infinite Creator as an aspect of IT, Infinite Intelligence presumably is part and parcel of creating octaves as opposed to going through octaves.

Interested as always in your responses....

~ Q ~

[Lavazza]

[unity100]

As i have mentioned before, i find discussing with you rather unproductive, quantum. therefore, without any offense, i will skip your comments. with the exception of a few important points, all others would be a repetition of what was before, therefore unnecessary. the important ones, will probably eventually come up in detail, as the discussion progresses.

[Quantum]

As i have mentioned before, i find discussing with you rather unproductive, quantum. therefore, without any offense, i will skip your comments. with the exception of a few important points, all others would be a repetition of what was before, therefore unnecessary. the important ones, will probably eventually come up in detail, as the discussion progresses.

No offense taken at all unity. We are speaking to the material exclusively, not about ourselves or each other. Quotes are offered by all as a means of further understanding the material as much as they are to support our interpretations of it. As such it is reasonable to request quotes to support your statements as much as it is for any member, myself certainly included. Please, always feel free to request. It is the reason we are here. I would ask for my edification if you in fact primarily find my discussions as unproductive as you suggest wholly as a result of my continually requesting that you indeed support your positions strictly from the LOO, given we purport ourselves to be in discussion of the LOO, and are in participation as a study group as regards the LOO exclusively? If a position or interpretation seems to run counter to the purported study and intent of a subject, in this case the LOO, then as a study group, as in any class desiring to increase its understanding of its subject, wouldn't you agree that it is in the best interest of and for all in the class, yourself/myself included, that these positions be desired to be challenged, questioned, turned around? In an academic setting wherein members have taken it upon themselves to become students of a said material, whether studying for a doctoral degree or for adept-hood, it would seem that one would dance in the delight and revel in the opportunity of being challenged as a means of becoming sharper with respect to it, much like any training. Is this not the definition of academia? Is this why we are not here? My position is merely an academic request, and that as such we strive to maintain academic honesty to the material.

Be then prepared in joy, fun, and revelry in the dance for productivity to offer your rationale as regards the material.

In Love and Light...

~ Q ~

[unity100]

My refraining from discussing with you, is not due to anything other than your fixation in defending an all powerful, infinite god concept - which you apparently believe in and feel that has to be true - AND while defending it, selectively ignoring, skipping, intentionally repeating, reiterating, or subconsciously evading anything in the posts of the person you are discussing with, or, in the material you strive academic honesty in regard to, if they are detrimental to that belief/perspective.

what results in the end just happens to be a more elaborate, detailed, and advanced type of the situation that ensues when one discusses with someone with fundamentalist religious views - anything that is not beneficial to the support of belief, is subconsciously forgotten, anything that is detrimental to the arguments are consciously skipped, anything that is thought to be relevant is incessantly repeated. i am not saying that you are a fundamentalist religious person. however, the pattern that the person discusses with you, is basically the same.

there is no point in discussing like that. it is not only unfruitful, but also time consuming and wasteful for the participants.

[Turtle]

Quantum...here you go.

Book 2, session 27
Questioner: I understand that the first distortion of intelligent infinity is
the distortion of what we call free will. Can you give me a definition of this distortion?

Ra: I am Ra. In this distortion of the Law of One it is recognized that the
Creator will know Itself.

--------------------------------------------------------


There is infinity. All is unified in infinity. We are all one.

There is no other concept or perspective that is "above" this (in a hierarchical sense), for this is the great mystery unbroken.

[Ali Quadir]

It's only fair to produce the supplying of references or logic to support ones opinion when requested. If you then proceed to describe religious fundamentalism adding to that that your discussion partner isn't one, but maybe remotely looks like it. That's not a fair response to a fair request... In fact that's intellectual dishonesty... "i am not saying that you are an intellectually dishonest person. however, the pattern, is basically the same."

If we speak from the Law of One, and consider Ra an authority, we must conclude that there is one infinite creator. We must also conclude Ra considers us Him...

1.5 Questioner: (The question was lost because the questioner was sitting too far from the tape recorder to be recorded.)
Ra: I am Ra. Consider, if you will, that the universe is infinite. This has yet to be proven or disproven, but we can assure you that there is no end to your selves, your understanding, what you would call your journey of seeking, or your perceptions of the creation.

That which is infinite cannot be many, for many-ness is a finite concept. To have infinity you must identify or define that infinity as unity; otherwise, the term does not have any referent or meaning. In an Infinite Creator there is only unity. You have seen simple examples of unity. You have seen the prism which shows all colors stemming from the sunlight. This is a simplistic example of unity.

In truth there is no right or wrong. There is no polarity for all will be, as you would say, reconciled at some point in your dance through the mind/body/spirit complex which you amuse yourself by distorting in various ways at this time. This distortion is not in any case necessary. It is chosen by each of you as an alternative to understanding the complete unity of thought which binds all things. You are not speaking of similar or somewhat like entities or things. You are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. You are unity. You are infinity. You are love/light, light/love. You are. This is the Law of One.

If Ra knew there was one additional level he would have mentioned it. He didn't... Therefore I have to agree with Quantum.. Unless actual evidence of the opposite, which is different from opinion, becomes available.

[3D Sunset]

Perhaps a more pertinent question is: Why does the Infinite Creator elect to create suffering about Inifity for ITself in all of these threads?

The best part about beating your head against a wall is how good it feels when you stop.

I still say that no more than 12 angels can dance on the head of a pin, and I should know because I am pin headed (especially when it comes to Infinity).

Infinite Love and Infinite Light,

3D Infinite Sunset

[Ali Quadir]

I got to admit.. I'm slacking a bit, but yesterday I went to the gym again... Now all my muscles hurt.. Some of my muscles are truly hurting... Why would I create suffering for my muscles?

Perhaps it's as simple as that. The creator as an organism has a different interpretation of suffering.

And truly, to what degree are we suffering? I think only to the exact degree of our identification with an outcome...

[Lavazza]

Hey, whose going to apologize for making my head explode? Quantum, I'm looking at you...

[unity100]

It's only fair to produce the supplying of references or logic to support ones opinion when requested. If you then proceed to describe religious fundamentalism adding to that that your discussion partner isn't one, but maybe remotely looks like it. That's not a fair response to a fair request... In fact that's intellectual dishonesty... "i am not saying that you are an intellectually dishonest person. however, the pattern, is basically the same."

If we speak from the Law of One, and consider Ra an authority, we must conclude that there is one infinite creator. We must also conclude Ra considers us Him...

1.5 Questioner: (The question was lost because the questioner was sitting too far from the tape recorder to be recorded.)
Ra: I am Ra. Consider, if you will, that the universe is infinite. This has yet to be proven or disproven, but we can assure you that there is no end to your selves, your understanding, what you would call your journey of seeking, or your perceptions of the creation.

That which is infinite cannot be many, for many-ness is a finite concept. To have infinity you must identify or define that infinity as unity; otherwise, the term does not have any referent or meaning. In an Infinite Creator there is only unity. You have seen simple examples of unity. You have seen the prism which shows all colors stemming from the sunlight. This is a simplistic example of unity.

In truth there is no right or wrong. There is no polarity for all will be, as you would say, reconciled at some point in your dance through the mind/body/spirit complex which you amuse yourself by distorting in various ways at this time. This distortion is not in any case necessary. It is chosen by each of you as an alternative to understanding the complete unity of thought which binds all things. You are not speaking of similar or somewhat like entities or things. You are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. You are unity. You are infinity. You are love/light, light/love. You are. This is the Law of One.

If Ra knew there was one additional level he would have mentioned it. He didn't... Therefore I have to agree with Quantum.. Unless actual evidence of the opposite, which is different from opinion, becomes available.

i always provide references to starting points of any conclusion. there has been no case in which i havent. in the cases i havent given a direct link to a particular quote, it means that i think it is a very obvious, unforgettable q/a relating to the detailed topic at hand, and someone who is attempting to discuss in that detail, would remember the relevant quote. if the person doesnt remember, it can mean either of two things :

- the person havent carefully read or reflected on the relevant material in the Ra material regarding subject. but, s/he is attempting to discuss on it. it is totally illogical.

- the person remembers them, but, consciously and intentionally avoiding them because it is detrimental to his/her belief, argument, perspective.

in either case, its that person's responsibility. at most, the person can be referred to the place where core of the discussion has been made regarding the topic, containing the links and references that were provided for any kind of conclusion or reasoning, with huge, half page posts in 6-7 pages.

and from that point on, if the person still keeps restating, rephrasing, and reiterating the arguments that were already discussed in that topic, then it becomes a pointless repetition.

noone has the obligation to reiterate 7 page full of half page posts, just because someone comes and repeats something.

If Ra knew there was one additional level he would have mentioned it. He didn't... Therefore I have to agree with Quantum.. Unless actual evidence of the opposite, which is different from opinion, becomes available.

that is a good example of selectively forgetting material :

http://lawofone.info/results.php?session_id=13&ss=1#5

13.5 Questioner: Thank you. Can you tell me of the first known thing in the creation?

Ra: I am Ra. The first known thing in the creation is infinity. The infinity is creation.

Category: Cosmology

13.6 Questioner: From this infinity then must come what we experience as creation. What was the next step or the next evolvement?

Ra: I am Ra. Infinity became aware. This was the next step.

Category: Cosmology

13.7 Questioner: After this, what came next?

Ra: I am Ra. Awareness led to the focus of infinity into infinite energy. You have called this by various vibrational sound complexes, the most common to your ears being “Logos” or “Love.” The Creator is the focusing of infinity as an aware or conscious principle called by us as closely as we can create understanding/learning in your language, intelligent infinity.

there are levels, as you see in here. and what is named as 'creator', is the focusing of infinity as an aware or conscious principle.

it is not infinity itself, directly. infinity first gains awareness, and then its focus, becomes the creator.

i shouldnt have to link this, for example. because, this was discussed before, and you were in that thread. yet, you have forgotten it, and picked some other q/a, and despite, it doesnt directly support the logic that is being proposed, you still accepted it.

everything being in infinity, doesnt make infinity 'the creator'.

[Turtle]

there are levels, as you see in here. and what is named as 'creator', is the focusing of infinity as an aware or conscious principle.

That's what I was trying to illustrate with my last post, but you provided an even clearer quote.

Infinity, and Conscious Infinity.

The Law of One is Infinity (0 distortion)

The Law of Free Will or Confusion is Infinity Aware aka The One Infinite Creator (1st distortion)

[unity100]

The confusion of some, regarding the octave end comes from missing to differentiate in between the central sun, logos, and infinity.

Merging with infinite intelligence from any point, does not make that point, infinite intelligence itself.

Even, it doesnt make that point actually its manifestation, or focusing, 'the creator'.

Remember what Ra says about what black holes are -> there are points from which entities merge with infinite intelligence. There are more than 1 black hole manifesting in this universe. is any of them the central, first logos ?

now, there are a few important considerations regarding the octave end. and curious ones too.

first, there are infinite octaves. we are given this information by Ra regarding octaves. they speak of the earlier one, the later one, and even wanderers who come from there. also they speak of the possibility of infinite octaves. (and according to what they say regarding infinity, it has to be so).

so then. if there is an earlier octave, and later octave, and all entities in this octave coalesce in the central sun at the end of THIS octave, is the central sun something that experiences octaves ?

there is an earlier octave, and later octave, so there are even entities coming from those octaves. that means, time is not a component in between these as such, since, for a wanderer of the later octave to be present in this octave with current octave's logos (and probably, the entity's own probable past), the central sun has to be present in both octaves. but, is it the same central sun, or, is it the 'future state' of the central sun, that is present in this octave, like how a 3rd density entity's higher self, can look back to its 3rd self and help it ?

this is a curious situation. for, if the latter is true, then, it means that the central logos of this creation is an entity that experiences time, or its equivalent in regard to progress, octaves.

but then there is infinite intelligence of which, this central sun is a focus of. then, where is the infinite intelligence, in regard to these octaves ?

since, everything has to be ensuing from infinite intelligence, and, a later octave be present at the time of this octave, and a wanderer coming back from that octave, there has to exist an experience nexus, a creation, as the next octave, simultaneous (in grand scale, losing the concept of this octave's time) with this one. even if it is in 'future'.

infinite intelligence has to be present in both these octaves at the same time. if not, the 'infinite' prefix in front of it, would not hold meaning. moreover, it has to be present in both these octaves, because, any manifesting 'existing' thing comes from it.

so, that means, infinite intelligence is not something that experiences octaves. it is present in infinite octaves, and infinite universes those octaves have, all at the same time. including, whatever infinite forms of manifestation and existence, there is, that we dont know.

then what does all these make the great central sun at the center of this octave's existence ? if it is not infinite intelligence itself ?

it is just what it is, as we are told -> it is a focus of the infinite intelligence, and we know it as 'creator'.

the focus that infinite intelligence found here, in whatever strength, is manifesting and flowing into this octave, creation, through that central sun. and it is finding infinite numbers of lesser focuses, and creating infinite numbers of sublogoi, manifestations, universes, realities, parallel existences and as such.

we, all that exists in this creation, octave, are basically that logos. ie, the intelligent energy that is manifesting in this creation, we all, make up that one central sun.

when all possibilities are discovered here, all the refractions that we have are experienced, we start to coalesce in the manner we have spread out from that one central focal point, combining to each other in whatever manner we will do (not necessarily in order, or manner we have spread out at the start of the octave), and merge at one central point in which we have spread out into this octave like a heartbeat.

merged with infinite intelligence, we will be. and probably out of any octave, manifestation.

then, in infinite time, we will find another focus point, and again, like a heartbeat, spread into another existence, manifestation, from a single point like we did before. that will be the start of another octave.

and, this is happening in infinite manners - infinite intelligence is finding infinite focuses, and infinite octaves and their universes are being manifested, and unmanifested, at any given 'moment' of existence.

what is infinite intelligence doing, is, experiencing and discovering infinity.

therefore, confusing 'the creator', the focus point of infinite intelligence, with infinite intelligence itself, and, infinite intelligence, with infinity itself, would be incorrect.