A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet

[BrownEye]

[Plenum]

man, you just put me off my eggs BrownEye

[BrownEye]

If we think about our "habits" and beliefs they are quite funny.

[AnthroHeart]

Is a fantasy a habit if we keep having it? Mine are somewhat bizarre. I guess you could say funny in a way.

[Monica]

To all those who said they eat 'humane' meat: This is for you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKeWdOeVZn8

[Diana]

I went to a vegetarian Resturant and ordered pad Thai with no egg (I'm a vegan) and after I was halfway through I realized they put egg in my meal.

Pad Thai also has fish sauce in it. I have asked ad nauseum: Is it vegetarian? Yes. No meat? No. No fish sauce? No. Then I get the dish, taste it, and I know there is fish sauce in it. So I tell the waitress/waiter. And they say, Only a little. So I stay away from pad Thai. Watch the Vegan Black Metal Chef on Youtube for his great pad Thai recipe instead (and laugh till you cry it's so funny).

I also have some problems socially when I bring up my veganism. My mother-in-law used to feed my wife and I before we went vegetarian/vegan and when we made the change she kept not checking ingredients that had animal products in them. I felt terrible not eating the food she cooked, but I really had no choice in the issue and had told her my dietary restrictions. I now think I may just eat out only at places I know have great vegan options when eating out with people.

I hardly ever eat out for many reasons, but when I do, it's not hard to get SOMEthing. Almost all restaurants have salad for instance. Going to someone's house is more challenging. It's difficult not to offend. Recently a friend's young son had gotten into bull-riding (I live in Arizona). They wanted me to come and support him. I told them that while I didn't judge, I did not agree with using animals in that way and to please respect my feelings/convictions. They were not really understanding and still make hints but I stick to my convictions, which causes me discomfort but who cares? What is a little discomfort compared to the suffering animals endure for human pleasure and greed?

I also work for Starbucks and I feel I am a huge part of helping people eat more animals (which I'm sure they would eat anyways) and I feel like it goes partially against my beliefs to serve something I feel strongly against, because of ethical, health, and environmental objections I hold. Also, baristas waste like 5 gallons a milk a day from lack of attention to how much milk is needed and it really hurts me to see that. I'm a supervisor now so I can coach them to not waste, but that's only a small part I can do. Also, in stores I see much waste and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do about it, cause I only have so much control.

I'm not planning on making a career out of Starbucks but I'm learning a lot in it right now and having great catalysts coming from this job.

Any advice?

I think you are doing exactly what you need to be doing. You are physically helping the situation by minimizing waste, and spreading your light there.

[Diana]

I found this old post by Pablisimo in the original "in regards to eating meat" thread. He makes some good points in a very loving way about vegetarians/vegans being "extremists," and clarifying why analogies are used, such as human rape, to forward understanding of the vegetarian perspective.

RE: In regards to eating meat
I think all this talk of extremism is a little unfair in the context of what has actually been written. It's pretty unjust to accuse someone of being an extremist for simply choosing to never eat meat. If she were an extremist, she would be burning down meat packing plants or assassinating cattle ranchers, not engaging in a respectful dialogue to both explain her own position and try to better understand the positions of others. Several people, including yourself, have implied that eating meat somehow is a more balanced way to live, which is fairly judgemental in my view.

This is not a choice between being "balanced" (omnivore) and being "extreme" (vegetarian). You can be a balanced individual on the STO path and choose either option. However, that does not necessarily mean that both options are equal from an ethical standpoint.

One thing that seems to have been missed repeatedly is that Monica has been trying to understand the other perspective.

"As I recall, we did the opposite: several of us went out of our way to say that vegetarianism isn't a prerequisite for STO harvest."

"I am sincerely just trying to understand how the killing of animals can be reconciled with the STO path."

These two quotes are distinct and not contradictory. You only have to be 51% STO to graduate. Which, to me, means you do not have to be perfectly STO to graduate. Thank goodness there is room for error and still be harvestable. Otherwise, I surely wouldn't make it! I see meat eating as incompatible with STO intent, but there is a wider range of considerations beyond diet in judging overall harvestability. This is the point I think Monica was making.

The second quote gets to the heart of what seems to have been missed consistently in this thread. She is trying to UNDERSTAND how you reconcile meat eating with the STO path itself, because from her perspective (and mine) they seem mutually contradictory.

Personally, I have reached a certain amount of peace with this topic. I've decided that while meat eating in this modern era is inherently wrong, that I should not focus on it in other people. For me it's a conscious decision to be non-judgemental about a topic that I do see as rather black and white. It's really intense catalyst and I only found peace by basically making a choice to try to make my own light shine as brightly as I can without worrying about the darkness in others. Raise yourself up and you raise the whole. I also keep a sense of humility about me because while I do have strong opinions on the topic, I am always aware of my own ultimate ignorance while encased in a 3rd density body. What I'm saying to myself is "This path is right for Pablisimo, and seems like it is right for everyone else, but who I am I to say? I don't have all the answers".

Despite this sense of peace that this position has given me, I still to this day truly do not understand how one can be deeply spiritual and yet continue to eat meat. I had hoped that these threads would provide some insight. I strive to be non-judgemental, but I have to admit it is much easier for me in regards to the average person on the street who may not have given the topic much thought. This is a discussion forum, however, filled with people who have pondered the deeper complexities of existence and are consciously striving towards the light. Therefore, it is harder for me to to understand the meat eating position in this context. I really had hoped to read some insightful, thoughtful comments about a meat-eating perspective that might help me increase my own compassion and understanding. While this was briefly touched on, for the most part it has been sidestepped.

So, in short, no I don't think you have to be vegetarian to graduate STO. However I, too, would like to understand how a deeply spiritual, STO-dedicated person reconciles meat eating with the STO path. Not because I think they MUST be vegetarian in order to graduate or be spiritual or whatever, but because I truly don't understand how you can reconcile the two. I do not expect to ever AGREE with a meat-eating stance, but I do believe I have the capacity to UNDERSTAND it, and that understanding would undoubtedly help me to be more non-judgemental and compassionate. Given this is a discussion forum filled with wonderfully loving beings, this place is my best chance for getting that understanding. It sure would be nice if some of the meat eating members would explain that perspective instead of just being defensive or attacking vegetarianism.

I have plenty of specific examples with post #. Here is just a small summary- where meat eating was compared to disgusting crimes like rape (of a child) several times, meat eating being presented as soul killer, meat industry compared to slavery, meat industry as an illegal crime in future, meat eating as repulsive as eating human flesh.

I'd like to hopefully clear up a major misconception. When you sincerely ask other-selves who disagree with you on a subject to explain their perspective, you have a duty to reciprocate. That is, you can't fairly ask for greater understanding about the meat-eating perspective if you are not willing to also explain the ethically-motivated (as opposed to health-motivated or some other kind of ) vegetarian perspective.

The comments you refer to above were said in a sincere attempt to illustrate how an ethically motivated vegetarian sees the issue. It was not intended to actually equate a person who eats meat with a child rapist. It was instead meant to explain that we really do see the treatment and slaughter of animals as a moral crime. Some were hypothetical: "OK, so you guys don't see the keeping of animals in these conditions and then their later slaughter as inherently wrong. Alright, so just as an exercise to better understand how WE see it, just imagine they were human kids instead of animals. Then how would you feel about it?" You see, it is an attempt to explain our perspective and nothing more. You don't have to AGREE, but the point was to try to get you guys to understand how we see it. In the same way that I'd like to see a thoughtful presentation of an omnivore's perspective that I probably won't AGREE with, but can understand at least.

I don't know how you guys feel about gay rights in the US, but a common tactic when discussing them with African Americans is to compare it the struggle for black civil rights, just as with women's civil rights. It seems like a logical comparison (though of course with some differences). However, that approach DOES NOT WORK. The *general* reaction to a comparison of gay rights and civil rights in the African American community is extremely negative, and there are good cultural and logical reasons for this. The Prop 8 people would have been much more effective with their outreach if they had understood this simple fact.

I see using analogies to torture and killing of animals in the same way. To a vegetarian the connection seems obvious. How often when people talk about the holocaust do you hear "They treated us like animals, slaughtered us like cattle, etc etc". It just seems like such a clear and simple analogy. However, it causes very strong negative reactions in meat eaters when you use these kinds of analogies. Perhaps they are inherently inflammatory, perhaps they just make no sense to someone who does not see animals as having inherent value as our spiritual younger brothers and sisters. I apologize for any of these illustrations I used. I know now, from reading this thread, that despite how relevant the analogies seem to me, that it hurts the discussion to use them. So, for the record, please know that the intention when comparing meat eating to rape, torture, slavery, and human murder, was to explain our perspective...to explain how we see the production of meat-based food, not to actually charge that you are killing and raping children.

You mentioned food is not particularly important to you to discuss, which I respect. However, let's keep in mind this is a discussion forum and a thread about meat eating vs vegetarianism. Participation in that thread implies an interest in hearing other perspectives and sharing our own. You are clearly a very thoughtful person, and I would greatly welcome more of your insight into the issue in the spirit of mutual understanding and respectful compassion.

I sort of "opted out" of the other thread because it was getting too contentious and I wasn't actually getting any useful information. I felt that I'd already gone over my perspective and despite my genuine desire to hear the other side, all I really saw in return was defensiveness and unfair accusations. However, I've continued to read this thread and it really struck a nerve for me when I saw all the posts about being an extremist. Monica has been reasonable, loving, humble and kind in her responses, often ignoring personal slights and going out of her way to be considerate. I admire her courage to stand up for what she believes in and try to engage in loving discourse about a difficult issue. You may not agree with her, but calling her position extreme is terribly unfair.

[Monica]

Why were we arguing again?

Someone should have posted this long ago. It pretty much sums it up.

If animals matter morally, then the only rational and ethical response is to go vegan

I don't think there would have been any discussion. We could have saved many hours of silly debating!

...

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

Sadly many people don't believe in animal consciousness still. And thus feel no morality.

Many others choose not to care.
It is very upsetting.  There's more to vegan diet than just saving animals.  Its also about environmental sustainability.  Slaughterhouses need to go, if not for the former, then the ladder.

Murders 2D and in effect slowly kills the rest of the planet with global warming.  Or at least switch to a day by day diet, go vegan 3 or 4 out of 7 days. Anything, something.

Just don't do completely nothing, every little change counts.  Even just cutting back...

[Diana]

Why were we arguing again?

Someone should have posted this long ago. It pretty much sums it up.

If animals matter morally, then the only rational and ethical response is to go vegan

I don't think there would have been any discussion. We could have saved many hours of silly debating!  

...

It is an exercise in wishful thinking to have named this thread "A Friendly Conversation..." 

Just don't do completely nothing, every little change counts.  Even just cutting back...

Yes. Everything counts, either way. To become conscious does not just mean philosophizing about the nature of reality. Actions count, and  when one's awareness is opened, choices become conscious.

[Night Owl]

Though being conscious is a self righteous thing. Being conscious is being conscious that are not!

[GreatSpirit]

Mod Note: The following 14 posts were split from a separate thread and merged into this one.

---

Lets face it, we can assume that the majority of vegans/vegetarians are the way they are because of ethics and certainly not nutrition or health reasons. As long as your diet is balanced and use common sense, I see no problem with veggies and meat. I eat 3 fried eggs a day in coconut oil. It's not so much the eating of the animal that bothers me, but the treatment of that animal during its life.

Eat meat, but respect and thank the meat, as well as your veggies. They are providing great service to you, so accept that service.

Also, I think vegans/vegetarians fail to realize that it costs land to grow their crops. The more people eat vegetables, the more land is required, and the more loss of natural habitat occurs for animals. So the veggie people are indirect killers themselves and they need to accept that fact.

[Diana]

Lets face it, we can assume that the majority of vegans/vegetarians are the way they are because of ethics and certainly not nutrition or health reasons. 

...

Also, I think vegans/vegetarians fail to realize that it costs land to grow their crops. The more people eat vegetables, the more land is required, and the more loss of natural habitat occurs for animals. So the veggie people are indirect killers themselves and they need to accept that fact.

You are wrong on so many levels. 

Let me just say that I am the healthiest person I know, and I look younger than anyone I know my age. I am vegetarian for many, many reasons, one of which is definitely health and optimal nutrition. 

The majority of crops are grown for the meat animals. I won't repeat the stats here, as there is ample reference on this site thanks to Monica. But you are so far off here in your assessment I had to say something. It's the opposite of what you presume. I'll leave it to you or anyone else who is actually interested in facts to research it. 

[GreatSpirit]

Lets face it, we can assume that the majority of vegans/vegetarians are the way they are because of ethics and certainly not nutrition or health reasons. 

...

Also, I think vegans/vegetarians fail to realize that it costs land to grow their crops. The more people eat vegetables, the more land is required, and the more loss of natural habitat occurs for animals. So the veggie people are indirect killers themselves and they need to accept that fact.

You are wrong on so many levels. 

Let me just say that I am the healthiest person I know, and I look younger than anyone I know my age. I am vegetarian for many, many reasons, one of which is definitely health and optimal nutrition. 

The majority of crops are grown for the meat animals. I won't repeat the stats here, as there is ample reference on this site thanks to Monica. But you are so far off here in your assessment I had to say something. It's the opposite of what you presume. I'll leave it to you or anyone else who is actually interested in facts to research it. 

I can tell this is an emotionally touching subject for you based on your response. Then good for, and keep doing what you're doing. I'm not going to stop you, or demonize you for just eating vegetables.

But I'm certainly not going to recant my statements about THE MAJORITY of vegans/vegetarians choosing their lifestyle due to ethical reasons, which I can understand and I find them as true to me, as they are false to you.

I also don't like the torture and mistreatment of animals any more then you do, but I will again, not recant my statements about land and forests being destroyed to plant crops, and also for animal pastures.

.....I think the deeper question that needs to be asked.....are their just too many people in this world for the Earth to feed and properly sustain? I think WE ALL know the answer to that one.

Also, when doctors are giving us such bi-polar responses about how a vegan lifestyle kills, or how any meat consumption kills.....I personally have a problem with that, so in MY MIND, I'm going to keep it balanced and eat both, and thank both for their services If doctors can't even tell us whats "right and healthy", then they have no business telling me what I should or shouldn't put in my body. ONLY I DECIDE what goes in.

There is no one correct universal diet for everyone.

[Diana]

I can tell this is an emotionally touching subject for you based on your response.

My response wasn't emotional. I just don't like untruths. A lot of what I post here is just to cut through emotional stuff and get to a bottom line, usually facts or simple underlying concepts.

I do not like the systematic torture of animals by humans, but that wasn't was I was posting about.

Most land used for growing crops is used for animal food. The waste is huge when compared to the amount of food that could be generated if the crops were grown to feed people.

And I know a lot of vegetarians. The number one reason as far as I have observed is health and nutrition. There are vegetarians who don't have any focus on the animals at all. I would say that vegans are more likely to have ethical and moral reasons be their primary motivation. But didn't Bill Clinton become vegan, or in his words—near vegan? Does anyone think he cares about the animals? He did it after having by-pass surgery to come healthier.

[GreatSpirit]

I can tell this is an emotionally touching subject for you based on your response.

My response wasn't emotional. I just don't like untruths. A lot of what I post here is just to cut through emotional stuff and get to a bottom line, usually facts or simple underlying concepts.

I do not like the systematic torture of animals by humans, but that wasn't was I was posting about.

Most land used for growing crops is used for animal food. The waste is huge when compared to the amount of food that could be generated if the crops were grown to feed people.

And I know a lot of vegetarians. The number one reason as far as I have observed is health and nutrition. There are vegetarians who don't have any focus on the animals at all. I would say that vegans are more likely to have ethical and moral reasons be their primary motivation. But didn't Bill Clinton become vegan, or in his words—near vegan? Does anyone think he cares about the animals? He did it after having by-pass surgery to come healthier.

To each their own. It's apparent to me that vegans and meat eaters will always be at odds with each other, each using articles they can find by a doctor supporting their lifestyle. So be it. The most important part is not to demonize each other. Although I don't agree with their lifestyle, I'm not demonizing vegans for eating just vegetables, and I as a meat eater ask that vegans don't demonize me. Like Tupac says, I aint mad atcha.

The whole purpose of the post was really just a joke on how "everything is bad for you" since like I said, even doctors can't agree on whats healthy or not and that is personally disturbing to me.

Remember in the movie Avatar (if you've seen it) how Parker says something along the lines of "ya know, ya throw a rock and it'll land on some sacred fern or something" because apparently everything seemed sacred that the company he worked for was trying to possess or destroy.

[norral]

the torture of animals bothers me. we just blatantly kill them as though they are disposable. how would we like it if an alien race put us in pens locked to a feeder so we couldnt move at all
just to fatten us up and then shot a nail into our head to kill us. not so much i bet. and i do eat some meat very little but i do eat some . and the products in meat the fats are just not good
for our arteries that is not even debatable. an apple or a steak hello the apple is much better for you. that said people will stop eating meat when they are ready usually for health reasons i am 
not a judge of others but meat eating and high protein consumption like we have here in america is just not good for you 

[GreatSpirit]

the torture of animals bothers me. we just blatantly kill them as though they are disposable. how would we like it if an alien race put us in pens locked to a feeder so we couldnt move at all
just to fatten us up and then shot a nail into our head to kill us. not so much i bet. and i do eat some meat very little but i do eat some . and the products in meat the fats are just not good
for our arteries that is not even debatable. an apple or a steak hello the apple is much better for you. that said people will stop eating meat when they are ready usually for health reasons i am 
not a judge of others but meat eating and high protein consumption like we have here in america is just not good for you 

I WANT HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE!! I WANT HIGH LDL CHOLESTEROL!! I WANT HIGH TRIGLYCERIDES!! I WANT TO CONSUME TONS OF OMEGA 6 FATTY ACIDS!!

Lol I'm just messing with ya man. At this point in the game (at least for me), I do not argue with vegans when I'm told meat is bad for me. Ok, so it's bad for me. Will I still eat meat? You betcha!! Is the polluted air I breath bad for me? Yup, but I will still breath air. But most importantly, I just don't really care They are going to do what they want to do. If that makes me an uncompassionate and evil person for eating meat, I can live with that.

Lol, again I'm just messing with ya. I'd say 99% of vegans don't care about my health or if I eat meat because they know I'm a big boy and it's my choice. Same token, I will not tell vegans that their lifestyle is unhealthy either, as much as I disgaree with it. Why? Because I don't care. It's the MILITANT/CRUSADER VEGANS who are the dangerous ones though, which are few and far between thank the Lord.

And who cares if someone dies of a heart attack. People and animals die everyday. I agree that animals should be raised and slaughtered humanely. I also believe people should get along and work together and die humanely. But will this happen to my levels of satisfaction? Probably not in my lifetime and there is nothing I can do about it and I accept that.

[Diana]

It's the MILITANT/CRUSADER VEGANS who are the dangerous ones though, which are few and far between thank the Lord.

I don't think the "Lord" has anything to do with it, whoever that is.

And you'd better steer clear of those dangerous militant/crusader vegans out there trying to get humans to treat animals ethically. You don't want to get gunned down in McDonalds or Burger King.

[GreatSpirit]

It's the MILITANT/CRUSADER VEGANS who are the dangerous ones though, which are few and far between thank the Lord.

I don't think the "Lord" has anything to do with it, whoever that is.

And you'd better steer clear of those dangerous militant/crusader vegans out there trying to get humans to treat animals ethically. You don't want to get gunned down in McDonalds or Burger King.

Whoa......You know what I mean by "militant" vegans. These are the ones who instead of just not buying meat products and minding their own business, feel the need to take matters into their own hands and prove how morally superior they are to others, and will march and protest in front of a Tyson factory or something of that nature to make a point. Does it actually achieve anything in the long run? No, you just piss off employees trying to get to work, and I guess now according to you, I'm gonna get gunned down because I bought a cheap low quality burger at some fast food joint. lol. Just messing with ya. These are the same people who crash military funerals because they think soldiers and the military are evil. And thats crossing the line.

People avoiding meat for ethical, religious, or health reasons is their choice, which is noble and I admire that. But keep it to yourself. I'm certainly not going to stop you. If you believe its wrong and unhealthy, then don't eat it. But when a vegan says I'm evil and uncompassionate for eating meat, well thats crossing the line. Same thing as Christian telling me I'm a bad person and going to Hell because I don't believe in Jesus. Would you want someone preaching to you about Jehovah, or how you need Jesus Christ in your life? Probably not.

[Brian_Sanchez]

Have it your way, if someone wants to strike, let them. Preach, go ahead. I reckon it's healthier to eat plants rather than animals; however, that fuel that runs life ain't picky, so eat what you want as it's your free will.

In truth, we grow plants, which we eat and some we feed to animals. We feed animals plants so that we can eat them later thus, wasting more land and resources in the process than just eating plants to begin with.

I believe animals are further along in their spiritual development than plants, thus they feel the negative energy of the process it takes to grow them as it is so dehumanized being done in a factory setting or/and like production.

Change happens all the time, this wasn't how we produced food but a few generations ago and it will change again in a few more generation's time. You can speed up that change or stay within the program (which one might even disagree with say the animal treatment).

I will end my statement, in that, just be thankful for whatever you eat. Let love guide your decisions. We all are humans here and mortals, thus it's your choice on what fuels that life and the actions you take along the mortality that we all share. :3

[Diana]

Whoa......You know what I mean by "militant" vegans. These are the ones who instead of just not buying meat products and minding their own business, feel the need to take matters into their own hands and prove how morally superior they are to others, and will march and protest in front of a Tyson factory or something of that nature to make a point. Does it actually achieve anything in the long run? No, you just piss off employees trying to get to work...

Actually I don't know what you mean by militant vegans, though I get that some people go to extreme lengths to save other life forms from suffering, just as some people went to great lengths to stop the sufferings of slavery. I don't blame them at all (though I personally don't want to be an activist). They are simply trying to end needless suffering.

I don't watch popular media so I don't know what you mean about a Tyson factory. But if you look at history, these sorts of protests do have an effect actually, if only to bring awareness to the general public. I'm sure the general public was appalled by womens' and African American rights to vote at the time. But we changed into a more compassionate society as a result.

It's not about being morally superior. It's about stopping needless suffering. The "morally superior" assumption is a judgment on your part I would imagine. I can tell you that anyone who truly is fighting for the end of animal suffering doesn't care at all about their own ego in the matter because their hearts are breaking at the suffering.

...and I guess now according to you, I'm gonna get gunned down because I bought a cheap low quality burger at some fast food joint. lol. Just messing with ya.

And I was "messing with you" with a little sarcasm. I was amused at the adjective "dangerous."

These are the same people who crash military funerals because they think soldiers and the military are evil. And thats crossing the line.

This is quite an assumption. Is this a fact?

As an aside, I wouldn't use the word "evil," but of course the military is horrible in the extreme—people shooting, maiming, and killing each other over nonsensical BS invented by those "in power." If anything, and the threat of religious groups is real, we could spend our considerable energy and money on defense rather than offense. Crashing a funeral does not seem like a good way to raise awareness.

People avoiding meat for ethical, religious, or health reasons is their choice, which is noble and I admire that. But keep it to yourself. I'm certainly not going to stop you. If you believe its wrong and unhealthy, then don't eat it. But when a vegan says I'm evil and uncompassionate for eating meat, well thats crossing the line.

Has a vegan told you were evil? If a vegan told you were not compassionate regarding meat animals because you consume factory-farmed meat, that, arguably, is not out of line. If you truly felt that compassion for the animals, then why would you continue to support such a system?

I personally don't care what choices you make, while at the same time wishing this world had less needless suffering. This is perhaps my own foible according to the Law of One. But is there anyone here who wishes no one had intervened in the slaughter of Jews in Nazi Germany, or the abolition of slavery in the U.S.?

Same thing as Christian telling me I'm a bad person and going to Hell because I don't believe in Jesus. Would you want someone preaching to you about Jehovah, or how you need Jesus Christ in your life? Probably not.

It's not the same.  Someone witnessing about their religion is not the same as someone trying to save the lives of suffering sentient beings. I don't really think I need to spell out why.

[Minyatur]

If we were to look at animals from a metaphysical viewpoint, then as younger consciousness they are alike children to ourselves.

A mirror on how mankind is with a vulnerable and innocent pojection of itself.

[GreatSpirit]

Diana, my god...for the last time...if you don't want to eat meat...then don't eat meat.

[outerheaven]

Diana's been pretty respectful to you. And I am not even a vegetarian or vegan. *gasp*

Instead, you might want to consider how you've created a straw-man argument by painting vegetarians and vegans as aggressive, militant activist types whose futile efforts are just a time-suck on society. And then you might want to reflect on the rejection you've put on someone by turning their passion and perspective into this ugly, dumb annoyance. It's pretty easy to see how someone would want to clarify their position, which you've distorted -- and voila, now you're attracting the people you're trying to get away from.

I get wanting to be left alone, not to be judged for what you eat. I think everyone gets that and I think that's totally reasonable. But it's pretty brazen to ask for people to mind their own business, while loudly and passive-aggressively slamming the viewpoints of others. I mean it cuts both ways dude.

[Matt1]

I am going to go Vegan from being Vegetarian soon. Having researched it a little i can see the positive service it can give to the environment as well as animals. Hopefully it will help me tone up or lose a little bit more weight to polish off what my vegetarianism started.

[Patrick]

      Just passing by to share much love and light with you all...       

[I am Shayne]

Establish a purpose:
Do you believe plants can provide the resources you need to support your body complex?
If the body complex requires animal foods, then eat what you need. Consider the consequences.
If plant foods can provide all that is necessary, why kill? Consider the consequences.
If sunlight can provide all that is necessary, why eat? Consider the consequences.

I do what i believe is required to sustain my purpose.

[Matt1]

Lately i have changed my vegetarian diet to that of a vegan diet and i am wondering about the limits of the vegan diet in the sense of clothing and chairs etc. Although i eat vegan food as far as my knowledge will allow , it has recently dawned upon me that how truly vegan can someone be if they still have leather shoes, cotton clothing and leather chairs? Is it possible to be vegan only through diet only? This doesn't make a lot of logical sense, am i just a wannabe vegan? How is it possible to be vegan in this sense? Do people carry around a hemp chair or something with them to social gatherings or sit on the floor if someone has a leather chair? It seems fairly hardcore, what is the line? I guess are we simply trying to minimize suffering to animals as far as possible? Or are we simply changing to a vegan diet for health reasons rather than ethical reasons which are more of a byproduct of the dietary change?

I think this is an interesting question. I don't fancy changing all my clothing anytime soon at least haha.

[Billy]

Lately i have changed my vegetarian diet to that of a vegan diet and i am wondering about the limits of the vegan diet in the sense of clothing and chairs etc. Although i eat vegan food as far as my knowledge will allow , it has recently dawned upon me that how truly vegan can someone be if they still have leather shoes, cotton clothing and leather chairs? Is it possible to be vegan only through diet only?  This doesn't make a lot of logical sense, am i just a wannabe vegan? How is it possible to be vegan in this sense? Do people carry around a hemp chair or something with them to social gatherings or sit on the floor if someone has a leather chair? It seems fairly hardcore, what is the line? I guess are we simply trying to minimize suffering to animals as far as possible? Or are we simply changing to a vegan diet for health reasons rather than ethical reasons which are more of a byproduct of the dietary change?

I think this is an interesting question. I don't fancy changing all my clothing anytime soon at least haha.

I will say this.  Don't obsess.  Remember the reason you have gone vegan.  I'm assuming you have done so for the welfare of animals and I don't see how in the grand scheme of things being a perfectionist will make any real difference to the lives of these animals.  It may even have you dropping the whole thing because of how hard it is to juggle so many rules and regulations.  I think the line is where things become totally impractical and you are constantly having to question yourself and your choices.  Being vegan of course does mean making choices and cutting things out, but if it starts to dominate your thoughts and becomes a source of pain, then I think that something is up.  If your heart is in the right place, I feel that it should flow pretty easily. 

On another note, how have you been Matt?  Haven't seen you in a while, hope you are doing well