To Vaccinate or Not

[Monica]

All of that's irrelevant when it's your own kid who was damaged.

[Monica]

The US govt created a specific court process to handle these cases as a way to encourage manufacturers to support our public health needs for adequate vaccine supplies.

Vaccine court <<== See how it's done

[Minyatur]

Other than if the vaccines are bad or not in themselves, the pharmaceutical industry surely works quite a lot using fear as a lever on the population. As I said $$$.

[Shawnna]

All of that's irrelevant when it's your own kid who was damaged.

My heart aches for everyone who suffers.  Those who have children who end up with a severe reaction to a vaccine, and those who end up disabled or dead from contracting a preventable disease.  



Neither is acceptable and we should continue to support research into medical treatment based on the specific genome of the individual.  Doing that will allow us to know ahead of time whether or not a vaccine will cause harm to a specific individual.



At the end of the day, the real issue is are we functioning as a society based on sound scientific evidence, or are we functioning as a society based on fear and misinformation?

I would hope that we continue to function as a society based on sound scientific evidence, knowing that in those rare instances when something terrible happens, we will take care of and honor the individuals involved until our medical science is sophisticated enough the impact of a vaccine to an individual before it is given.

[Shawnna]

Other than if the vaccines are bad or not in themselves, the pharmaceutical industry surely works quite a lot using fear as a lever on the population. As I said $$$.

Until the USA wakes up and realizes that access to health care is the right of all and good public policy, instead of a market based commodity, all of health care will continue to be about $$$ Min.

[Monica]

Neither is acceptable and we should continue to support research into medical treatment based on the specific genome of the individual.  Doing that will allow us to know ahead of time whether or not a vaccine will cause harm to a specific individual.

Better yet, use immune-enhancing methods that aren't toxic. As with cancer treatments, it is ludicrous to poison the body and expect a favorable response.

I agree that personalized medicine is a definite improvement, but it isn't enough. The entire paradigm needs to change too.

At the end of the day, the real issue is are we functioning as a society based on sound scientific evidence, or are we functioning as a society based on fear and misinformation?

Agreed! As my previous posts show, there is an abundance of disinfo and outright lies, perpetuated from the corrupt pharmaceutical industry, who are in bed with our govt.

I would hope that we continue to function as a society based on sound scientific evidence, knowing that in those rare instances when something terrible happens, we will take care of and honor the individuals involved until our medical science is sophisticated enough the impact of a vaccine to an individual before it is given.

The instances are far less rare than they admit. Did you watch the video I posted about the vaccine court? It's not happening, sadly.

[Shawnna]

Neither is acceptable and we should continue to support research into medical treatment based on the specific genome of the individual.  Doing that will allow us to know ahead of time whether or not a vaccine will cause harm to a specific individual.

Better yet, use immune-enhancing methods that aren't toxic. As with cancer treatments, it is ludicrous to poison the body and expect a favorable response.

I agree that personalized medicine is a definite improvement, but it isn't enough. The entire paradigm needs to change too.

At the end of the day, the real issue is are we functioning as a society based on sound scientific evidence, or are we functioning as a society based on fear and misinformation?

Agreed! As my previous posts show, there is an abundance of disinfo and outright lies, perpetuated from the corrupt pharmaceutical industry, who are in bed with our govt.

I would hope that we continue to function as a society based on sound scientific evidence, knowing that in those rare instances when something terrible happens, we will take care of and honor the individuals involved until our medical science is sophisticated enough the impact of a vaccine to an individual before it is given.

The instances are far less rare than they admit. Did you watch the video I posted about the vaccine court? It's not happening, sadly.

Pharmaceuticals, medicine and certain government-sponsored disability and health care programs have allowed my youngest son to live a normal life here in the USA.  So I do not disparage the benefits simply because there are problems. It is inevitable in a system where health care is a market based commodity, rather than a system founded on good public health policy that there will be problems. My prayer is we will have safeguards in place to protect those who are harmed.

With respect to the video - no Monica, I did not watch it.  My preference is to get my information from sources that are not designed to promulgate one side or another but simply provide the facts.  Thank you for sharing though.

[Minyatur]

Other than if the vaccines are bad or not in themselves, the pharmaceutical industry surely works quite a lot using fear as a lever on the population. As I said $$$.

Until the USA wakes up and realizes that access to health care is the right of all and good public policy, instead of a market based commodity, all of health care will continue to be about $$$ Min.

It was more about using fear as a manipulation tool, but sure. I'm not from the USA anyway, though they do the same to pump taxes money.

[Monica]

Pharmaceuticals, medicine and certain government-sponsored disability and health care programs have allowed my youngest son to live a normal life here in the USA.  So I do not disparage the benefits simply because there are problems.  It is inevitable in a system where health care is a market based commodity, rather than a system founded on good public health policy that there will be problems.  My prayer is we will have safeguards in place to protect those who are harmed.

The medical system has saved my life twice, and my son's life once. I am very grateful that our medical system shines so brightly in acute situations.

Acknowledging that there is also corruption, alongside a shining, top-notch service, doesn't disparage the medical system. It simply acknowledges both sides.

With respect to the video - no Monica, I did not watch it.  My preference is to get my information from sources that are not designed to promulgate one side or another but simply provide the facts.  Thank you for sharing though.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The general mainstream consensus is that the 'official' info is accurate and unbiased. But what if that's not true? All sources have biases.

It seems to me that declining to consider other points of view is to miss out on potentially important information. I prefer to view info from a variety of sources, keeping in mind that none of them are without bias, and cross-reference everything, and continually be open to new information. Limiting oneself to only the 'official' sources is to put one's trust in the authority, and deny the possibility that they could be lying to you.

Case in point: The first video I posted. This shows an actual graph from the CDC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oYAVLDyR6Y All of it is well worth watching, for the science. See, in particular, the polio graph at 39:18.

Granted, the 2nd video was from an unabashedly anti-vaccine site. But not this one. This is a video of researchers presenting actual data from the CDC...data that the mainstream has covered up. I invite you to see for yourself.

[Shawnna]

Pharmaceuticals, medicine and certain government-sponsored disability and health care programs have allowed my youngest son to live a normal life here in the USA.  So I do not disparage the benefits simply because there are problems.  It is inevitable in a system where health care is a market based commodity, rather than a system founded on good public health policy that there will be problems.  My prayer is we will have safeguards in place to protect those who are harmed.

The medical system has saved my life twice, and my son's life once. I am very grateful that our medical system shines so brightly in acute situations.

Acknowledging that there is also corruption, alongside a shining, top-notch service, doesn't disparage the medical system. It simply acknowledges both sides.

With respect to the video - no Monica, I did not watch it.  My preference is to get my information from sources that are not designed to promulgate one side or another but simply provide the facts.  Thank you for sharing though.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The general mainstream consensus is that the 'official' info is accurate and unbiased. But what if that's not true? All sources have biases.

It seems to me that declining to consider other points of view is to miss out on potentially important information. I prefer to view info from a variety of sources, keeping in mind that none of them are without bias, and cross-reference everything, and continually be open to new information. Limiting oneself to only the 'official' sources is to put one's trust in the authority, and deny the possibility that they could be lying to you.

Case in point: The first video I posted. This shows an actual graph from the CDC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oYAVLDyR6Y All of it is well worth watching, for the science. See, in particular, the polio graph at 39:18.

Granted, the 2nd video was from an unabashedly anti-vaccine site. But not this one. This is a video of researchers presenting actual data from the CDC...data that the mainstream has covered up. I invite you to see for yourself.

Thank you Monica - I have watched the youtube video you posted previously. Honestly, I took issue with her introduction where she insinuated that everyone blindingly gets vaccinated. For me, (and that's all I can speak to) I agreed to have my sons vaccinated and I continue to vaccinate myself as needed. I have never, ever done anything without doing my own research ahead of time. I'm fortunate that we've all benefited from the vaccines without severe reactions.

This is definitely a personal decision and I'm just grateful that the majority still believe in the science that supports the public health benefits of a good vaccine program. I also pray that further research will result in even better vaccines for all.

[Monica]

Thank you Monica - I have watched the youtube video you posted previously.  Honestly, I took issue with her introduction where she insinuated that everyone blindingly gets vaccinated.  For me, (and that's all I can speak to) I agreed to have my sons vaccinated and I continue to vaccinate myself as needed.  I have never, ever done anything without doing my own research ahead of time.  I'm fortunate that we've all benefited from the vaccines without severe reactions.

This is definitely a personal decision and I'm just grateful that the majority still believe in the science that supports the public health benefits of a good vaccine program.  I also pray that further research will result in even better vaccines for all.

I'm glad to hear that you do your own research!  Many do not. I agree that it's a personal decision. It was one of the hardest decisions I ever made as a parent. It seems clear to me now, but it was very difficult at the time! I didn't have the resources or support back then. This was before the internet! 

I'm certainly not against people have access to vaccines. As I said, I chose one vaccine myself, after doing my own research. I am against mandatory vaccinations, and there is no question that a lot of scientific information has been twisted or suppressed. Add to that, that many people don't question their doctors...they simply do as they're told, whether it's vaccinations or chemo or whatever. So while you aren't one of those people, the woman in the video is correct that many people are like that. But I agree with you that not everyone does, of course, so maybe she came on a little too strong on that point.

I was one of those people. I thought anyone who didn't vaccinate was guilty of child abuse! It never even entered my mind to question it. But right before my baby was born, a friend advised me to research it, and wow, am I glad I did! It is because of activism of the parents of harmed children that has brought the issue into public awareness. Had they not made the effort to get their stories heard, people like me might never have questioned it.

Aside from any biases the presenter might have had, what did you think of the cover-up of the decline of polio, as shown in the CDC graph? That is the part I'm referring to.

[Shawnna]

Aside from any biases the presenter might have had, what did you think of the cover-up of the decline of polio, as shown in the CDC graph? That is the part I'm referring to.

If I remember correctly, she was insinuating that polio was declining when the two types of polio vaccines were introduced.  Obviously I'd want to understand how those statistics may have been gathered or more likely, estimated.  The 1940's and 50's weren't exactly known for reliable data or tracking systems that I'm aware of.  

My understanding is that at its peak in the 1940s and 1950s, it's estimated that polio paralyzed or killed over half a million people worldwide every year. Immediately prior to the polio vaccine era, sanitation improved such that exposure was reduced and the primary age of polio infection increased.  With the increase in age, the disease more often resulted in paralysis.  

I've found this resource helpful in understanding polio's history:  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_poliomyelitis

[Monica]

If I remember correctly, she was insinuating that polio was declining when the two types of polio vaccines were introduced.  Obviously I'd want to understand how those statistics may have been gathered or more likely, estimated.  The 1940's and 50's weren't exactly known for reliable data or tracking systems that I'm aware of.

It's not about anyone insinuating. It is fact, if the CDC graph is to be believed. And why wouldn't it? If we can't trust the CDC data from that era because 'they didn't have reliable data or tracking systems' then we can't trust ANY data from that era, including data suggesting that the vaccine drastically reduced the incidence of the disease. We can't have it both ways. Either we trust the data, or we don't. We can't say that data is no good, but then cite other data from the same era.

I suggest watching just 10 seconds of the video, starting at 39:30, with the sound off, to eliminate any bias about that woman's bias. Forget about what she says. What's important here is the data.

The graph clearly shows that polio was already on a steep decline before the vaccine was introduced.

Granted, the video quality is poor, but a clearer version of this very same graph can be found elsewhere. It is the official CDC graph and it exists. It can be found if you care to do so, if you don't trust the one on this video and you want to see the original. It was this very graph that I saw back in 1987, in a book, that was one of the determining factors in my decision. The fact that even the medical system admitted that polio was declining before the vaccine was introduced, carried a lot of weight. It's one thing to be willing to inject poisons into a baby when we are certain there will be a greater benefit - immunity to a deadly disease - and quite another to do so knowing that the poisons might not even do what we're told they will do anyway. So we inject the poisons for...what? For nothing.

Such is the case with measles, surely. It is known that whenever there is a outbreak, most of the children were vaccinated. If the vaccine didn't even protect them, then what is the point of subjecting them to the risks of vaccines?

But getting back to the graph: You speak of scientific evidence. This is it! There is no insinuation, no debate, no question. It is there. It is proof that the medical system lied to us.

We can attempt to justify it all we want, and at the end of the day, we must still make our own decisions about vaccinations. But the fact stands that we've been lied to by the medical system.

This begs the question: Why?

And another question: What else are they lying to us about?

Figures don't lie but liars can figure.

[Shawnna]

I see your point, and appreciate the emotional energy you have invested in this very important public health policy.

By your logic, 'the medical system lied so we can't believe anything'.  I'm not going to go down that toxic path.  

I have chosen to have both of my sons vaccinated and I will continue to vaccinate myself as needed because vaccines are supported by clear evidence to eliminate suffering and death from preventable disease.  It is also knowing I would never want a choice I've made to potentially harm another.

Blessings to you Monica.  

[Minyatur]

Other than what we are being lied about, do you think your childrens have an actual need for vaccines. 

I was vaccinated when I was younger and I truly doubt it had any impact whatsoever or saved me from anything, it was just school policies to pump taxes money.

[AnthroHeart]

Never have gotten the flu vaccine, and have never been sick from the flu.

[Monica]

I see your point, and appreciate the emotional energy you have invested in this very important public health policy.

By your logic, 'the medical system lied so we can't believe anything'.  I'm not going to go down that toxic path.  

No, not at all!

My logic is:

The medical system lied so we should question what they tell us...be open to other sources of information that aren't from the pharmaceutical industry...and cross reference everything so that we can make an informed decision, rather than accepting the medical system as the sole, authoritative source of information.

I have chosen to have both of my sons vaccinated and I will continue to vaccinate myself as needed because vaccines are supported by clear evidence to eliminate suffering and death from preventable disease.  It is also knowing I would never want a choice I've made to potentially harm another.

No one is judging your choice. I'm certainly not. You have the right to your choice.

But your statement - that vaccines are supported by clear evidence to eliminate suffering and death from preventable disease - simply isn't true. I have just provided irrefutable proof that, at the very least, some of that 'evidence' has been called into question. And that's not even counting the abundant evidence from families whose stories have been suppressed.

What is true is that the medical industry TELLS US that vaccines are supported by clear evidence. That is what they tell us. But unless one has read all the scientific research themselves, and interviewed hundreds of families themselves, then they really don't know for sure...they are simply choosing to believe what they've been told by the fox who guards the henhouse.

Here is the reason I speak up:

I used to work in an office. One of our clients opened up to me and we became somewhat friends. She had 3 children. The first child was vaccinated as a baby, was fine, developing normally, then at around age 2, within a few hours - hours! - of getting a cocktail of vaccines, suddenly became autistic.

She knew that it was from the vaccines. There was never any question. But, she reasoned that he was simply that 'one in a million' and the good still outweighed the bad.

So she vaccinated her 2nd child.

The same thing happened. She now had 2 autistic children and was pregnant with her 3rd child.

She agonized over whether to vaccinate the 3rd child, but trusted her doctor that it couldn't possibly happen a 3rd time.

He was wrong.

Her 3rd child lasted a bit longer. She was walking, talking, learning, growing, totally normal.

But then, with that next round of vaccines, at around 2 1/2, she too suddenly became autistic.

Can you imagine what life is like for this woman?

I don't have to imagine. I knew her. I shudder at the burden she carried. Have you ever been around an autistic child? ONE autistic child is extremely difficult to manage. Can you imagine having 3?

It's difficult to open one's mind to the possibility that we may have unintentionally harmed someone we love, even when they don't show any signs of harm at all. It's painful to contemplate. I am happy that you and your children are fine. Most are. Most people get vaccinated and they don't suffer any ill effects, or at least none that have been connected to the vaccines. There are some who would argue that any vaccine impairs the immune system for life, and is a major contributing factor in allergies, asthma, and other illnesses.

I was vaccinated. Most adults were vaccinated. We live with it. We make the best of it. I refuse to accept that I can never be healthy just because I was vaccinated. But, the number of vaccines we received pales in comparison to the number of vaccines given children today. Best case scenario is that they really have no idea what the long-term effects of so many vaccines are. For them to say that vaccines are safe is simply a lie, because it's impossible to prove that. We won't know for decades whether those vaccines caused other health issues later in life.

That woman with the 3 children told me she regretted deeply getting more vaccines after her first child was damaged by them. She now carries a burden of guilt. I feel so much compassion for her. If posting this important information can help spare 1 child from a similar fate, then it is worth it.

Blessings to you Monica.  

Blessings to you too! and to your children!  

[AnthroHeart]

Is being over-vaccinated a painful death?

[Monica]

Is being over-vaccinated a painful death?

I have no idea. You'd have to ask some of the parents whose children died within hours of being vaccinated. In many cases, the deaths were recorded as 'crib death' (SIDS) which is just a blow-off for 'we don't know why this child died.'  There are lots of those stories on youtube...parents speaking out, hoping to alert other parents.

[AnthroHeart]

I thought autism was a pre-incarnative choice.

[Monica]

I thought autism was a pre-incarnative choice.

My understanding of pre-incarnative programming is that the Higher Self establishes parameters, within which we can make choices. So no matter what we choose, we will still have an opportunity to learn something. If a baby is born with an illness, then the choice has already been made, and the parameters are narrower. But still, the parents make choices that affect that child, even in the womb. Those possible choices were all taken into consideration by all the Higher Selves, prior to incarnation. But they still live their lives and make choices. We all make choices which affect our lives and the lives of our loved ones. Just because it was pre-incarnational programming doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to do our best to make informed decisions, especially when those decisions affect others.

Plus, there's a difference between being born with it, vs. getting it later.

Some things can't be changed. I will never be a fashion model because I made the pre-incarnative choice to be short. I can't change my height. But I can change many other things.

You've heard of genetic predispositions, right? Scientists are trying to figure out why certain genes 'turn on' in some people but not in others. I think it's because all those people made the pre-incarnative choice to allow for the possibility of that illness, but whether it actually manifested or not was based on the person's choices during the incarnation.

I had an illness that was caused by a mistake a dentist made. It cost many years of physical, mental and emotional anguish, not to mention many thousands of dollars. On some level, I chose that possibility. But the dentist still played a role too...and so did I, by the choices I made.

It's both. It's pre-incarnative, but it's also our own conscious choices.

[Minyatur]

You could say we are nothing be awareness of choices, programming is the higher self's way to become aware of how he'd react under given circumstances.

It's not like tomorrow hasn't already happened, time does not work in a linear way as our consciousnesses do.

Also each choice that is made, the opposite choice also is explored in a different realm of reality as all things are.

[Shawnna]

I see your point, and appreciate the emotional energy you have invested in this very important public health policy.

By your logic, 'the medical system lied so we can't believe anything'.  I'm not going to go down that toxic path.  

No, not at all!

My logic is:

The medical system lied so we should question what they tell us...be open to other sources of information that aren't from the pharmaceutical industry...and cross reference everything so that we can make an informed decision, rather than accepting the medical system as the sole, authoritative source of information.

That is helpful clarification, thank you.

I have chosen to have both of my sons vaccinated and I will continue to vaccinate myself as needed because vaccines are supported by clear evidence to eliminate suffering and death from preventable disease.  It is also knowing I would never want a choice I've made to potentially harm another.

No one is judging your choice. I'm certainly not. You have the right to your choice.

But your statement - that vaccines are supported by clear evidence to eliminate suffering and death from preventable disease - simply isn't true. I have just provided irrefutable proof that, at the very least, some of that 'evidence' has been called into question. And that's not even counting the abundant evidence from families whose stories have been suppressed.

What is true is that the medical industry TELLS US that vaccines are supported by clear evidence. That is what they tell us. But unless one has read all the scientific research themselves, and interviewed hundreds of families themselves, then they really don't know for sure...they are simply choosing to believe what they've been told by the fox who guards the henhouse.

{snip}

I am happy that you and your children are fine. Most are. Most people get vaccinated and they don't suffer any ill effects, or at least none that have been connected to the vaccines.

(emphasis in your statement above in red is mine)

You've just stated my point - most do get vaccinated (thank you God!) and never suffer any ill effects.  In doing so, they are also choosing to help support good public health and protect vulnerable others from contracting a potentially lethal disease.



My heart aches for all who suffer.  Whether it be from a bad reaction to a vaccine or when contracting a potential fatal, preventable disease.

Interestingly enough, there was a story on NPR this morning (I don't believe in coincidence!) about the vaccine court and a woman whose 12 month old son became ill at the same time he got the measles vaccine.  She has tried for 15 years to find one doctor - just one doctor - to say that the measles vaccine he received was likely to have contributed (not caused, just 51% chance to have likely to contributed) to her son's disability.  She's never been able to find one doctor that with their training believes that to be the case.

In the family's situation above that you so eloquently illustrated, I'd be wondering about a genetic predisposition of some sort with the same situation occurring to multiple siblings.  (yes, I can't even imagine her pain and struggle).

It is clear you subscribe to a school of thought that seems to believe a youtube video constitutes irrefutable proof - not in my book it doesn't.  I've yet to see anything that constitutes scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism.  



People can have an adverse reaction.  Our vaccine court has been designed to rule in favor of the patient - it only requires a 51% likelihood that a vaccine contributed to their malady.  

Could we do more?  Absolutely!  Medicine and vaccine research is ongoing and I'm very hopeful for a good Ebola vaccine that can be used on a widespread basis very soon.  I'm also excited about genome research leading to better medicine designed for each individual.  

We don't live in a perfect world - of that we can all agree.  But at some point we have to do what is best for the greater good; rather than operate out of fear of what may happen to a very, very small number of individuals while at the same time making sure that if there is a negative reaction, we support and take care of the individuals and families involved.

[Monica]

You've just stated my point - most do get vaccinated (thank you God!) and never suffer any ill effects.  In doing so, they are also choosing to help support good public health and protect vulnerable others from contracting a potentially lethal disease.

Ah, I guess I set myself up for that, didn't I?  

Actually, I was trying to soften my words, in an effort to not appear judging of your decision. What I really meant was what I said in the last part of the sentence, which you glossed over:

or at least none that have been connected to the vaccines.

I was trying to reassure you that, since you and your children didn't notice any apparent ill effects, you'll likely be fine from here on out. I've been vaccinated myself. I wish I hadn't been. But I was, so I must make the best of it. But just what did I mean by 'fine'? and what is meant by 'no ill effects'?

It is now a fact that 1 in 2 women, and 1 in 3 men, will get diagnosed with cancer in their lifetime. Children are now getting cancer and diabetes. Some even have hardened arteries. It's now commonplace for children to be on multiple medications, for allergies, asthma, and other chronic illnesses. Just take a drive through any large city and count the children's hospitals, catering mostly to cancer.

Are these children fine? I think not.

A century ago, cancer was considered an old person's disease. It was very rare for a child to get cancer. Not so today.

How much of that is because of vaccines? It's impossible to speculate, because there are so many other factors: environmental pollutants, hormone disruptors in soaps and shampoos, pesticides, artificial colorings and flavorings, excess animal protein (turns on the cancer gene), excess refined sugar, over-the-counter medications along with prescription meds, a toxic cocktail of drug residues in drinking water, fluoride, chlorine, and other poisons in the drinking water, cancer-causing chemicals in plastic bottles, radiation, lack of breastfeeding, hormones and antibiotics in meat and dairy, household cleaners containing ingredients known to cause cancer, pesticides on cotton clothing, laundry detergents and fabric softeners, and myriad other toxic chemicals that children come into contact with on a daily basis.

Cancer doesn't strike at random. The alternative community - who actually HEALS thousands of people with cancer after the medical system has sent them home to die - knows exactly what causes cancer and exactly how to heal it.

It's a combination of toxicity, acidity, and lack of certain nutrients, along with an impaired immune system.

With our children being exposed to so many poisonous chemicals on a daily basis, the single most important weapon to help keep them healthy is an intact immune system.

Vaccines disrupt the normal immune response.

In truth, the idea that vaccines don't cause any ill effects is absurd.

Why?

1. Because each individual ingredient is toxic. No one is arguing that mercury isn't toxic. How about alluminum? formaldehyde?

Here are vaccine ingredients: http://vaxtruth.org/2011/08/vaccine-ingredients/ Would you want your child eating these chemicals?

2. But here's the kicker: If the child ate these chemicals, they might have a chance of eliminating the toxins, through the normal eliminative channels. But these poisons are injected. Injected! And the poisons are all preserved with formaldehyde. Think about it. The poisons are injected into the bloodstream, along with a preservative, which means that the body can never eliminate the poisons!!!

How could that not cause ill effects?

Of course it does. We just might not associate the child's chronic allergies, asthma, or even cancer, with the poisons we injected into their little bodies years ago.

Typically, parents of breastfed, unvaccinated children never experience any of the 'normal' childhood illnesses, ear infections, fevers, allergies, etc. Does this count? Does it indicate anything about the child's immune system? I think it does.

Even IF the vaccines prevented certain diseases (and that's a very BIG IF), it's trading 1 problem for a whole slew of other problems...potentially just as deadly, just over a longer period of time. If parents knew that vaccines drastically increased their child's risk of not only autism but cancer too, would they be so quick to inject those poisons?

You will now probably say "but no one has ever proven that vaccines cause cancer". Right. Not in the medical world, where cancer is BIG business...each cancer patient is worth $350,000 to the drug industry. 

This isn't being fear-based. It's being pragmatic, and thinking for myself and doing the math. Consider the source. Who stands to gain?

My heart aches for all who suffer.  Whether it be from a bad reaction to a vaccine or when contracting a potential fatal, preventable disease.

We all want the same thing: what's best for our children.

Interestingly enough, there was a story on NPR this morning (I don't believe in coincidence!) about the vaccine court and a woman whose 12 month old son became ill at the same time he got the measles vaccine.  She has tried for 15 years to find one doctor - just one doctor - to say that the measles vaccine he received was likely to have contributed (not caused, just 51% chance to have likely to contributed) to her son's disability.  She's never been able to find one doctor that with their training believes that to be the case.

Of course not. No doctor is going to be willing to risk losing his license.

The fact that she couldn't find a doctor to incriminate vaccines doesn't mean none exist. It just means that they aren't willing to lose their license by speaking out.

I sell a device that many have stated has healed their chronic or even 'incurable' conditions, myself included. I did a presentation for 7 MDs and they bought if for themselves and their staff, but told me they wished they could share it with their patients, and use it in their clinic like they do in Japan, but they couldn't...because they might lose their licenses.

It is clear you subscribe to a school of thought that seems to believe a youtube video constitutes irrefutable proof

WTF???

Here's a video from Mayo Clinic:

Pharmacogenomics at Mayo Clinic

Check it out! Mayo Clinic has - gasp - a youtube channel!

Youtube is just a venue, like the pages of a book. It doesn't make something irrefutable, or legit, or illegit. It is simply a venue.

Did you miss the part about the graph being from the CDC? Did you also miss the part about me seeing that exact same graph elsewhere? and that you too could find it elsewhere if you cared to see for yourself?

But no...you missed all that because someone happened to post that graph...on youtube?

The venue doesn't matter. What matters is content.

By all means, don't bother looking up any of the thousands of people whose voice is heard only on the people's channel - youtube. Unregulated for the time being. Absolutely trust the medical system, since they are 100% irrefutable. Our medical system is shining bright light...with zero greedy people and zero corruption. Absolutely, if they say it's safe, then it must be safe, right? Never mind all those thousands of families who have the courage to speak up...they're not scientists so their observations mean zilch. Never mind when doctors and scientists have the audacity to post their findings - using CDC data!!! - on youtube. Because they chose to post their info on an unregulated channel, they are worthless, right? OK got it.

- not in my book it doesn't.  I've yet to see anything that constitutes scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism.

Vaccines DO cause autism. If you don't believe that, then you are ignoring the many thousands of families whose children became autistic within hours of being vaccinated. Do you really need an 'authority' to tell you? I really don't understand how you can just disregard those stories.

It just doesn't happen in every case, obviously. Maybe it only happens if they have a certain genetic predisposition, or some other predisposition not yet discovered.

Until they discover exactly why vaccines cause autism in a certain percentage of children but not in others, then letting them inject those poisons into a child is playing Russian Roulette.

Those families played the game...and lost. They are pleading with other parents to listen. Their stories are valid. You can't just make them disappear just because the 'authorities' choose to suppress the data. 

We don't live in a perfect world - of that we can all agree.  But at some point we have to do what is best for the greater good; rather than operate out of fear of what may happen to a very, very small number of individuals while at the same time making sure that if there is a negative reaction, we support and take care of the individuals and families involved.

That's easy for you to say, since you were one of the lucky ones.

Best wishes to you, Shawnna. My son is 26 so this isn't even an issue for me. So I'm going to bow out of this fruitless conversation. You lost me when you said I "clearly think anything on youtube is 'irrefutable proof'". LOL!!! 

[Monica]

For the benefit of those who might not already have their minds made up, and don't mind if the info is posted on youtube    Here is an assortment of documentaries with valuable info, with references, to help you make an informed decision. I suggest cross-referencing all these and deciding for yourself.

Vaccine Nation  includes stories of parents who lost in court...don't they deserve to have their voices heard?

Silent Epidemic; The Untold Story of Vaccination Much about the court proceedings

Vaccination: The Hidden Truth Doctors and scientists from other countries...plus the CDC data

CDC Whistle Blower admits MMR Vaccine causes Autism

Dr Andrew Wakefield tells his side of the story in the MMR Vaccine causes Autism debate

Senior scientist at CDC admitted to fraud...more on CDC fraud in regards to vaccines

WHY most doctors are afraid to speak out - see what they did to this doctor who had the courage to:

Dr. Andrew Wakefield breaks silence on #CDCWhistleblower

Poisons in Vaccines

Here is just ONE of the MANY poisons in vaccines - aluminum.

The FDA maximum requirements for aluminum received in an IV is 25 mcg per day. The suggested aluminum per kg of weight to give to a person is up to 5mcg. (so a 5 pounds baby should get no more than 11mcg of aluminum.)  Anything that has more than 25 mcg of aluminum is *supposed* to have a label that says:

WARNING: This product contains aluminum that may be toxic. Aluminum may reach toxic levels with prolonged parenteral administration if kidney function is impaired. Premature neonates are particularly at risk because their kidneys are immature, and they require large amounts of calcium and phosphate solutions, which contain aluminum.

Research indicates that patients with impaired kidney function, including premature neonates, who receive parenteral levels of aluminum at greater than 4 to 5 [micro]g/kg/day accumulate aluminum at levels associated with central nervous system and bone toxicity. Tissue loading may occur at even lower rates of administration.  [http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cd...fr=201.323]

— Vaccines, for some reason, are not required to have this label and also are not required to follow the maximum dosage of 25 mcg.

So doing some math — the following are examples of weight with their corresponding maximum levels of aluminum, per the FDA:

8 pound, healthy baby: 18.16 mcg of aluminum

15 pound, healthy baby:  34.05 mcg of aluminum

30 pound, healthy toddler:  68.1 mcg of aluminum

50 pound, healthy child: 113 mcg of aluminum

150 pound adult: 340.5 mcg of aluminum

350 pound adult: 794.5 mcg of aluminum

So how much aluminum is in the vaccines that are routinely given to children?

Hib (PedVaxHib brand only) – 225 mcg per shot
Hepatitis B – 250 mcg
DTaP – depending on the manufacturer, ranges from 170 to 625 mcg
Pneumococcus – 125 mcg
Hepatitis A – 250 mcg
HPV – 225 mcg
Pentacel (DTaP, HIB and Polio combo vaccine) – 330 mcg
Pediarix (DTaP, Hep B and Polio combo vaccine) – 850 mcg
At birth, most children are given the hepatitis B vaccination.  The amount of aluminum in the Hepatitis B vaccine alone is almost 14 TIMES THE AMOUNT OF ALUMINUM THAT IS FDA-APPROVED.

At well-child check-ups, it’s common for 2 month, 4 month, 6 month etc., appointments to include up to 8 vaccinations that add up to more than 1,000 mcg of aluminum.  Look at the chart above and notice that that amount isn’t even safe for a 350 pound adult.  And many children get up to 8 vaccinations a visit several times a year!

According to the FDA and the AAP (American Academy of Pediatrics), what happens if a child receives more than the maximum required dose of aluminum?

Aluminum builds up in the bones and brain and can be toxic.
Aluminum can cause neurological harm.
Aluminum overdose can be fatal in patients with weak kidney’s or kidney disorders or in premature babies. (How many children are tested to see if their kidney’s are functioning properly before they are vaccinated?  Could this also be why the Hepatitis B shot, given to infants at birth, has been linked to SIDS? Neonatal Deaths After Hep B vaccination.)
[Aluminum Toxicity in Infants and Children, Committee on Nutrition,American Academy of Pediatrics, Pediatrics Volume 97, Number 3 March, 1996, pp. 413-416]

That's not even counting all the OTHER poisons in the vaccines...for a full list, see here:

Vaccine Ingredients — A Comprehensive Guide

And finally, the most important of all - the CHILDREN:

Meet the Children

“You cannot be in the presence of a profoundly vaccine damaged child and not know that child could be your own.  And you cannot try to comfort a mother who has just buried a baby who has died from a vaccine … and not know that you could be the one standing over the grave.  When it happens to your child, the risks are 100 percent.”
~Barbara Loe Fisher
(Founder of the National Vaccine Information Center)

[Monica]

1) - "Snopes.com isn't an authoritative source. It's just a husband-wife team who know how to use Google. So anything you read there is just their opinion. " (Quote: Monica)

Therefore:
'Monica, Indolering, BrownEye, Shemaya, Sheldor, (etc) aren't an authoritative source. It's just an individual who knows how to use Google. So anything you read from them is just their opinion.'

Yes. It's all just opinion...all of us. Even Q'uo said that their comments were just their opinion! So we're in good company.

(Question to Monica: Why are a husband and wife team "who know how to use Google" less informed than any who post here on B4th?)

The husband and wife team aren't any less informed...but neither are they any better informed. But many people treat snopes as though they're some sort of authority...and they're not.

[Splash]

Quote from the episode The Electric Can Opener Fluctuation

Sheldon: What are they doing here?
Leonard: We came to apologize again and bring you home. So why don't you pack up your stuff, and we'll head back?
Sheldon: No, this is my home now. Thanks to you, my career is over, and I will spend the rest of my life here in Texas trying to teach evolution to creationists.
Mrs. Cooper: You watch your mouth, Shelly. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.
Sheldon: But evolution is not opinion, it's a fact.
Mrs. Cooper: And that is your opinion.

1) - "Snopes.com isn't an authoritative source. It's just a husband-wife team who know how to use Google. So anything you read there is just their opinion. " (Quote: Monica)

Therefore:
'Monica, Indolering, BrownEye, Shemaya, Sheldor, (etc) aren't an authoritative source. It's just an individual who knows how to use Google. So anything you read from them is just their opinion.'

Yes. It's all just opinion...all of us. Even Q'uo said that their comments were just their opinion! So we're in good company.

(Question to Monica: Why are a husband and wife team "who know how to use Google" less informed than any who post here on B4th?)

The husband and wife team aren't any less informed...but neither are they any better informed. But many people treat snopes as though they're some sort of authority...and they're not.

[Shawnna]

You've just stated my point - most do get vaccinated (thank you God!) and never suffer any ill effects.  In doing so, they are also choosing to help support good public health and protect vulnerable others from contracting a potentially lethal disease.

Ah, I guess I set myself up for that, didn't I?  

No - you are simply stating what is absolutely true.  

Actually, I was trying to soften my words, in an effort to not appear judging of your decision. What I really meant was what I said in the last part of the sentence, which you glossed over:

or at least none that have been connected to the vaccines.

I was trying to reassure you that, since you and your children didn't notice any apparent ill effects, you'll likely be fine from here on out. I've been vaccinated myself. I wish I hadn't been. But I was, so I must make the best of it. But just what did I mean by 'fine'? and what is meant by 'no ill effects'?

Thank you Monica, but honestly, I did not ask for nor do I need your reassurance that we will be fine.  This statement comes across as condescending; I hope that wasn't intentional.

It is now a fact that 1 in 2 women, and 1 in 3 men, will get diagnosed with cancer in their lifetime. Children are now getting cancer and diabetes. Some even have hardened arteries. It's now commonplace for children to be on multiple medications, for allergies, asthma, and other chronic illnesses. Just take a drive through any large city and count the children's hospitals, catering mostly to cancer.

Your posting of alleged facts without posting your scientific source material is at best, naive.  At worse, you are attempting to instill fear in others who have grown to admire and/or believe what you say to be gospel.  Frankly, neither is very helpful.

Are these children fine? I think not.

A century ago, cancer was considered an old person's disease. It was very rare for a child to get cancer. Not so today.  

Again, I take great exception to making a blatant, fear-mongering statement without supporting scientific evidence.

How much of that is because of vaccines? It's impossible to speculate, because there are so many other factors: environmental pollutants, hormone disruptors in soaps and shampoos, pesticides, artificial colorings and flavorings, excess animal protein (turns on the cancer gene), excess refined sugar, over-the-counter medications along with prescription meds, a toxic cocktail of drug residues in drinking water, fluoride, chlorine, and other poisons in the drinking water, cancer-causing chemicals in plastic bottles, radiation, lack of breastfeeding, hormones and antibiotics in meat and dairy, household cleaners containing ingredients known to cause cancer, pesticides on cotton clothing, laundry detergents and fabric softeners, and myriad other toxic chemicals that children come into contact with on a daily basis.

Exactly - so for you to bring this up in a dialog about vaccines strikes me as unconscionable.

Cancer doesn't strike at random. The alternative community - who actually HEALS thousands of people with cancer after the medical system has sent them home to die - knows exactly what causes cancer and exactly how to heal it.

It's a combination of toxicity, acidity, and lack of certain nutrients, along with an impaired immune system.

Again, where is your scientific evidence to support such a statement???  

I believe (note that I am acknowledging that this is a belief) that the experiences we have in this incarnation are chosen by our fully conscious Soul who knows exactly what Life Lessons we and/or the Soul Mates that we've partnered with need the opportunity to learn in this lifetime.  Please do not interpret this to mean that I am blaming anyone for acquiring cancer.  I am talking about this from a strictly Soul/Spiritual perspective.  Cancer can also be attributed to certain gene presentations.  Because I believe we choose who our biological parents will be - this is factored into that Soul choice.  Much of this is covered in the Journey of Souls by Newton.

With our children being exposed to so many poisonous chemicals on a daily basis, the single most important weapon to help keep them healthy is an intact immune system.

Vaccines disrupt the normal immune response.

In truth, the idea that vaccines don't cause any ill effects is absurd.

Why?

1. Because each individual ingredient is toxic. No one is arguing that mercury isn't toxic. How about alluminum? formaldehyde?

Here are vaccine ingredients: http://vaxtruth.org/2011/08/vaccine-ingredients/ Would you want your child eating these chemicals?

Again, you are not able to point to unbiased scientific evidence to support your assertion.

2. But here's the kicker: If the child ate these chemicals, they might have a chance of eliminating the toxins, through the normal eliminative channels. But these poisons are injected. Injected! And the poisons are all preserved with formaldehyde. Think about it. The poisons are injected into the bloodstream, along with a preservative, which means that the body can never eliminate the poisons!!!

How could that not cause ill effects?

Of course it does. We just might not associate the child's chronic allergies, asthma, or even cancer, with the poisons we injected into their little bodies years ago.

Again, your fear-mongering emotional-based statement does nothing to move this dialog forward.  Please show me one unbiased scientific paper that supports your assertion that vaccines cause autism, cancer, or any of the other maladies that you've chosen to bring into this dialog.  The fact is, you can't.  

Typically, parents of breastfed, unvaccinated children never experience any of the 'normal' childhood illnesses, ear infections, fevers, allergies, etc. Does this count? Does it indicate anything about the child's immune system? I think it does.

Please show me the unbiased evidence to support this statement.  I understand you "think it does".  Does that make it FACT?  No - it is simply an opinion and that is all.  

Even IF the vaccines prevented certain diseases (and that's a very BIG IF), it's trading 1 problem for a whole slew of other problems...potentially just as deadly, just over a longer period of time. If parents knew that vaccines drastically increased their child's risk of not only autism but cancer too, would they be so quick to inject those poisons?

Really - you still believe that vaccines do not prevent disease and death??  

You will now probably say "but no one has ever proven that vaccines cause cancer". Right. Not in the medical world, where cancer is BIG business...each cancer patient is worth $350,000 to the drug industry. 

This isn't being fear-based. It's being pragmatic, and thinking for myself and doing the math. Consider the source. Who stands to gain?

Those who benefit from vaccines, as well as cancer research/treatment benefit obviously.  Here's a fact for you, cancer has declined in the last 10 years.  And here's the website where I acquired this fact:  http://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/all.html

My heart aches for all who suffer.  Whether it be from a bad reaction to a vaccine or when contracting a potential fatal, preventable disease.

We all want the same thing: what's best for our children.

I also want what is best for other people's children; especially those who are vulnerable and unable to have vaccines.  I'm trying to help my sons know what it means to care as much about the impact our choices have on society as they have on us individually.

Interestingly enough, there was a story on NPR this morning (I don't believe in coincidence!) about the vaccine court and a woman whose 12 month old son became ill at the same time he got the measles vaccine.  She has tried for 15 years to find one doctor - just one doctor - to say that the measles vaccine he received was likely to have contributed (not caused, just 51% chance to have likely to contributed) to her son's disability.  She's never been able to find one doctor that with their training believes that to be the case.

Of course not. No doctor is going to be willing to risk losing his license.

The fact that she couldn't find a doctor to incriminate vaccines doesn't mean none exist. It just means that they aren't willing to lose their license by speaking out.  

She spent 15 years trying to find one doctor - just one - who could say that there was a 51% likelihood that vaccines contributed to her son's malady.  Are you saying she didn't try hard enough?  

Perhaps the better explanation is that the fear-mongering individuals who've taken this issue as their life's cause are simply louder than science when it comes to promulgating information?  

Here's a fact to consider, where did the idea that vaccines cause autism originate?   This is an excellent article that sheds light on the source of the proven false information:

http://www.everydayhealth.com/news/where...come-from/

I sell a device that many have stated has healed their chronic or even 'incurable' conditions, myself included. I did a presentation for 7 MDs and they bought if for themselves and their staff, but told me they wished they could share it with their patients, and use it in their clinic like they do in Japan, but they couldn't...because they might lose their licenses.

Yes - fear is everywhere, even within the medical community.  There are many physicians who have gone against the 'status quo' without 'loosing their license'.  All of the Ayurvedic practitioners are but one example.  It is quite possible to live a life of integrity and bring healing to humanity.  The fact that 7 MDs indicated their unwillingness to do so speaks volumes to the character of those 7 MDs, nothing more.

Is it possible your financial interest in this issue means it is difficult to approach it with an open mind?  Honestly, I think it would be if it were me.

It is clear you subscribe to a school of thought that seems to believe a youtube video constitutes irrefutable proof

WTF???

Here's a video from Mayo Clinic:

Pharmacogenomics at Mayo Clinic

Check it out! Mayo Clinic has - gasp - a youtube channel!

Youtube is just a venue, like the pages of a book. It doesn't make something irrefutable, or legit, or illegit. It is simply a venue.

I totally agree (try not to be shocked!).  

This Mayo Clinic video does not in any way provide proof that vaccines cause autism or cancer or anything else.  It is a good introduction to genome research as it relates to medicine - which is what I've been saying all along.

Did you miss the part about the graph being from the CDC? Did you also miss the part about me seeing that exact same graph elsewhere? and that you too could find it elsewhere if you cared to see for yourself?

But no...you missed all that because someone happened to post that graph...on youtube?

The venue doesn't matter. What matters is content.

No - I didn't miss it.  I simply stated that an individual who creates a powerpoint that includes a graph and posts it on youtube does not constitute irrefutable proof - that is all.  I have not validated the information and frankly, am not inclined to.  I think there could be many reasons that the statistics would indicate a decline in polio immediately prior to the introduction of vaccines.  

Does that mean that the polio vaccine has not prevented disease and/or death for millions?  Of course it doesn't.

By all means, don't bother looking up any of the thousands of people whose voice is heard only on the people's channel - youtube. Unregulated for the time being. Absolutely trust the medical system, since they are 100% irrefutable. Our medical system is shining bright light...with zero greedy people and zero corruption. Absolutely, if they say it's safe, then it must be safe, right? Never mind all those thousands of families who have the courage to speak up...they're not scientists so their observations mean zilch. Never mind when doctors and scientists have the audacity to post their findings - using CDC data!!! - on youtube. Because they chose to post their info on an unregulated channel, they are worthless, right? OK got it.

You know as well as I do that I've never, ever said anything of the sort.  'Nuf said.

- not in my book it doesn't.  I've yet to see anything that constitutes scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism.

Vaccines DO cause autism. If you don't believe that, then you are ignoring the many thousands of families whose children became autistic within hours of being vaccinated. Do you really need an 'authority' to tell you? I really don't understand how you can just disregard those stories.

I most certainly don't need an 'authority' to tell me anything - I have always made my own choices based on the research that I do and what I know to be good medical care, and public health policy.

And I am not disregarding the many stories that are published by those who have had a negative reaction to a vaccine.  I'm simply recognizing that anecdotal evidence does not constitute a solid basis for making a medical choice for myself or my family.  Nor does it make a good basis for public health policy.

It just doesn't happen in every case, obviously. Maybe it only happens if they have a certain genetic predisposition, or some other predisposition not yet discovered.

Until they discover exactly why vaccines cause autism in a certain percentage of children but not in others, then letting them inject those poisons into a child is playing Russian Roulette.

I will ask again, please show me the unbiased scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism.  That really is a pretty simply request.  

I do suggest you read the link I posted above regarding the original of the myth that vaccines cause autism - it is an interesting read for those who prefer to make decisions based on fact, not fear-mongering by those who stand to profit from instilling fear.

Those families played the game...and lost. They are pleading with other parents to listen. Their stories are valid. You can't just make them disappear just because the 'authorities' choose to suppress the data. 

I never said their stories were not valid - in fact - I said my heart aches for all who suffer.  I absolutely agree that there are those who are going to have a negative reaction to some vaccines.  If I haven't made that clear, I apologize.  Medicine simply can't predict (yet!) who will react and who won't, but I'm confident it will in the not-too-distant future.

We don't live in a perfect world - of that we can all agree.  But at some point we have to do what is best for the greater good; rather than operate out of fear of what may happen to a very, very small number of individuals while at the same time making sure that if there is a negative reaction, we support and take care of the individuals and families involved.

That's easy for you to say, since you were one of the lucky ones.

Best wishes to you, Shawnna. My son is 26 so this isn't even an issue for me. So I'm going to bow out of this fruitless conversation. You lost me when you said I "clearly think anything on youtube is 'irrefutable proof'". LOL!!! 

I am indeed blessed (I prefer blessed to 'lucky').  I also own the choices I've made and I will never make a personal choice knowing that doing so could potentially harm another.  

Best wishes to you as well Monica.  My sons are 33 and 29, but I view public health policy as an issue for everyone.  I hope others who may stumble upon this exchange are willing to investigate facts, rather than fear-mongering.

Namaste  

[Monica]

Arguing that injecting poisons...preserved with formaldehyde...at many times the known safe rate for individual poisons, never taking into account the cumulative effects nor the fact that they're preserved and injected directly into the bloodstream...into infants...is safe.

It's beyond absurd.

But by all means, believe the authorities who tell you it's safe. What do I know?

Carry on.

shrug

[Shawnna]

Arguing that injecting poisons...preserved with formaldehyde...at many times the known safe rate for individual poisons, never taking into account the cumulative effects nor the fact that they're preserved and injected directly into the bloodstream...into infants...is safe.

It's beyond absurd.

But by all means, believe the authorities who tell you it's safe. What do I know?

Carry on.

shrug

Please stop Monica - I have never once argued that "injecting poisons...preserved with formaldehyde...at many times the known safe rate for individual poisons, never taking into account the cumulative effects nor the fact that they're preserved and injected directly into the bloodstream...into infants...is safe".

I'm unclear why you're trying to say that about what I've shared?