Do you guys actually believe this stuff?

[Account1]

Lol calm down, I stated before I'm not a logical positivist, I am not absolutely convinced of anything, something of a requirement for fanaticism.

Science/mainstream institutions has its fair share of zealots (or 'crusaders'), and this is a prime example.

You mean people that disagree with you right?

This thread is an attempt to 'convert the heathens'

Colouful analogy but it's unnecessary given how I am actually aware of tightly people will cling to new age beliefs and defend it at all costs I don't expect to convince anyone here but I figured since I am capable of offering alternatives and ask some questions I may as well since I'm enjoying leisure at the moment. It seems you've fought that battle before and see the stranger in the night as an attacker rather than someone asking for directions.

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The defense mechanism for new age beliefs often involves a lot of bizarre ad-hoc explanations that are only permissible under such a vague and expansive worldview. This is also known as "making stuff up".

Not assuming the existence of the unprovable or unfalsifiable is hardly a ludicrous way of assessing the universe, given the alternative

[Adonai One]

Does truth exist, Account1?

[Account1]

Does truth exist, Account1?

Does reality exist? Yes.
Does reality permit the perception of one's experiences to be in accordance with the reality of the circumstance? To varying degrees of accuracy.

[Adonai One]

Implicitly according to Ra, space and time as concepts (reality) do not exist without individual conscious minds. How does this make you feel?

[Account1]

It reminds me of the old riddle
If a tree falls and no one hears it, did it make a noise?

Ra suggesting that space and time only exist with an immediate observer reminds of that. To suggest the individual conscious minds construct physical space (I get the time is a social institution argument) rather than construct an interpretation of observation (which has been named "space") is outrageous and only holds water in the "everything is one and everything is love" view where technical explanations are not needed because one can "feel" the truth rather than work for it.

[Adonai One]

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with me. It really helps me reflect and learn about myself and you. Here's the passage on this in detail. You sum up the premise of love on this well.

28.6 Questioner: When does individualization or the individualized portion of consciousness come into play? How does this individualization occur and at what point does individualized consciousness take over in working on the basic light?

Ra: I am Ra. You remain carefully in the area of creation itself. In this process we must further confuse you by stating that the process by which free will acts upon potential intelligent infinity to become focused intelligent energy takes place without the space/time of which you are so aware as it is your continuum experience.

The experience or existence of space/time comes into being after the individuation process of Logos or Love has been completed and the physical universe, as you would call it, has coalesced or begun to draw inward while moving outward to the extent that that which you call your sun bodies have in their turn created timeless chaos coalescing into what you call planets, these vortices of intelligent energy spending a large amount of what you would call first density in a timeless state, the space/time realization being one of the learn/teachings of this density of beingness.

Thus we have difficulty answering your questions with regard to time and space and their relationship to the, what you would call, original creation which is not a part of space/time as you can understand it.

[JustLikeYou]

I don't really agree with your sentiments that it is a noble pursuit. Forgive me if you are being sarcastic, but I don't find this behavior "having or showing fine personal qualities or high moral principles and ideals". This is the same behavior of religious zealots telling you will 'burn in hell' for "xyz" reason. Science/mainstream institutions has its fair share of zealots (or 'crusaders'), and this is a prime example. This thread is an attempt to 'convert the heathens'.

There are a great many people out in the world who perceive some ill, some imbalance, some injustice. This ill calls to them for attention and since they are warriors at heart, they seek out the perpetrator in an effort to prevent the ill from infecting any more people. This is nobility without a doubt. It is not my way. But it is noble still.

[Adonai One]

If somebody can be converted by this man, let them be: In partial or full. This man has much to offer to this forum as a part of the one infinite creation *snicker*.

[Learner]

If somebody can be converted by this man, let them be: In partial or full. This man has much to offer to this forum as a part of the one infinite creation *snicker*.

He probably cannot believe that many of us were just like him not that long ago; and it's probably harder for him to believe that one day he will come over to our side. The fact he even bothers to write in this forum indicates something.

[Adonai One]

I really find this man perfect as he is. I am pretty sad that we can't just engage him as equals and not just accept him with or without ulterior motives.

[Account1]

Now I understand. You have a problem with the people who have this experience ...

It's not that I have a problem with people choosing their own beliefs, that's why I chuckled when I saw Parsons post, it's that I have a problem with beliefs that are conducive to mental illness. Mental illness is not something that is just always inherent in the individual, I have seen many, many otherwise perfectly functional people adopt new age beliefs and become more and more dissociated and eventually get committed to wards. The argument that they were going to become dissociated anyways regardless of beliefs is naive.

A huge part of this is because new age beliefs do not put a particular emphasis on discriminating fact from fiction as they are so expansive and vague. The individual can literally just make s*** up and it be "true" for them, they construct their own world. This often leads to an dishonest and bizarre interpretation of experience as the individual can assume something to be true simply because they would like it if it was. It eventually gets much darker though once they're a slave to their imagination.

If you don't have a problem with mental illness then I'm sorry but that's just cold. If I may take a leaf from the self important all knowing hippy attitude, you simply can't understand until you have this superior experience, unless you have it you will live and die wallowing in the ignorance of the true nature of reality. lols intended please don't get as antsy as Parsons over here

Don't get me wrong though I didn't come here simply to dismiss the material, the discussion has been fruitful I think. I have put a lot of effort into understanding this material but at the end of the day I am not close to convinced.

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And yes the Ra Material, being vague and cosmic in scope and also emphasizing transcendent notions falls into this category of new age belief

[Parsons]

There are a great many people out in the world who perceive some ill, some imbalance, some injustice. This ill calls to them for attention and since they are warriors at heart, they seek out the perpetrator in an effort to prevent the ill from infecting any more people. This is nobility without a doubt. It is not my way. But it is noble still.

I better understand your viewpoint and actually don't want you to change it. However, if you pardon the cliché, there have been people of this mindset who committed ethnic cleansing.

[Account1]

Reductio ad Hitlerum

[Parsons]

Now I understand. You have a problem with the people who have this experience ...

It's not that I have a problem with people choosing their own beliefs, that's why I chuckled when I saw Parsons post, it's that I have a problem with beliefs that are conducive to mental illness. Mental illness is not something that is just always inherent in the individual, I have seen many, many otherwise perfectly functional people adopt new age beliefs and become more and more dissociated and eventually get committed to wards. The argument that they were going to become dissociated anyways regardless of beliefs is naive.

I would strongly disagree with your last statement. People often get cart and horse confused. You seriously can't picture someone who is developing mental illness on their own being attracted to 'new age' beliefs? You are saying that believing new age beliefs causes mental illness? Lol...

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Reductio ad Hitlerum

Yes yes, I am aware that is unforgivably cliche.

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By the way, are you an ISTJ, INTJ, or ESTJ? I'm shooting in the dark a bit here but I'm guessing you are a professional in the field of psychology?

[JustLikeYou]

A huge part of this is because new age beliefs do not put a particular emphasis on discriminating fact from fiction as they are so expansive and vague. The individual can literally just make s*** up and it be "true" for them, they construct their own world. This often leads to an dishonest and bizarre interpretation of experience as the individual can assume something to be true simply because they would like it if it was. It eventually gets much darker though once they're a slave to their imagination.

All spiritual beliefs are dangerous. Christianity is a great example, as is Islam.

If you don't have a problem with mental illness then I'm sorry but that's just cold.

I don't have a problem with it anymore than I have a problem with cancer. I want these things to be reduced in the world, but I don't think fighting is the way. I prefer to promulgate that which is healthy rather than attack that which is unhealthy.

And as far as the Ra Material goes, you are right that there is danger in misapprehending what Ra intends. But I'm not going to admit to you that Ra's philosophy, clearly grasped (or reasonably clearly, I'm measuring by my own subjective standard here), is unhealthy. I've found the opposite to be true.

Besides, the ship has sailed on New Agey Stuff. It exists out there in abundance and we're just going to have to deal with it.

If I may take a leaf from the self important all knowing hippy attitude, you simply can't understand until you have this superior experience, unless you have it you will live and die wallowing in the ignorance of the true nature of reality.

Har har. I'm serious about that. I'm not saying I've had some superior experience. I don't know anything about you, so what the hell do I know? But I am saying that the perspective you tend to take indicates that you do not have access to the central element that draws people into the new age ideology. It is not merely an "I can believe whatever I want" mentality.

For what it's worth, space cadets drive me crazy, too. I call them "New Age Fairies".

Reductio ad Hitlerum

I'm going to steal this (even though I made a Nazi analogy earlier).

[Account1]

I would strongly disagree with your last statement. People often get cart and horse confused. You seriously can't picture someone who is developing mental illness on their own being attracted to 'new age' beliefs? You are saying that believing new age beliefs causes mental illness? Lol...

It's conducive to dissociation yes. This is not a matter of confusing correlation with causation. No, I'm not saying it causes it I'm saying, if you'll have the integrity to read my words honestly, that they can unground the individual and cause them to interpret experience in an unhealthy manner which over time can get real ugly.

You may disagree but I take it helping the mentally ill isn't your passion in life

[Learner]

Reductio ad Mentis Morbum :-p

[Adonai One]

...I have seen many, many otherwise perfectly functional people adopt new age beliefs and become more and more dissociated and eventually get committed to wards.

This mainly occurs when one commits themselves completely to a belief to where their very subjective reality and sanity depends on the belief being true. This is a huge problem with "new age beliefs" because, frankly, most of them heavily contradict a standard reality; But it can occur with any extreme form of conviction towards a belief and absolute doubt in anything else but the given belief.

To give a balance here, if an atheist were to commit himself to being an atheist absolutely to where there can only be a universe without a God, and were to enter a dimension of thought where there were a God, he would become very insane to the point of mental collapse.

[JustLikeYou]

I'm going to retract this claim:

But I am saying that the perspective you tend to take indicates that you do not have access to the central element that draws people into the new age ideology. It is not merely an "I can believe whatever I want" mentality.

Because you probably know more about people who go off the rocker than I do. Instead, I'm going to stick to the previous gun: spiritual beliefs are dangerous as such. And, by the way, Ra warns about the dangers of attempting spiritual work before laying the groundwork in mind and body.

[Adonai One]

Any belief is dangerous if you bet your whole life on it and want to commit suicide when it isn't true.

What distinguishes me from almost spiritual people is I don't need this stuff to live happily.

Magical ability is my primary concern and it has allowed me to attain pretty much anything I desire with time. Spiritualism aids me in attaining real, tangible rewards, results and wealth: Happiness. Happiness not in potentials but in the present moment. I care not for the currently unseen in a full capacity. I care about now and what works in the now. I can throw all this stuff away in a moment without blinking and find something else that provides happiness.

[Account1]

to give a balance here, if an atheist were to commit himself to being an atheist absolutely to where there can only be a universe without a God, and were to enter a dimension of thought where there were a God, he would become very insane to the point of mental collapse.

You would think that most people in this day and age would be able to entertain ideas without accepting them as absolute truth

By the way, are you an ISTJ, INTJ, or ESTJ?

INTP, though the myer briggs categories aren't really worth much save a bit of fun

Any belief is dangerous if you bet your whole life on it and want to commit suicide when it isn't true.

Like I said earlier, the transcendent themes you find in the Ra Material and new age beliefs are so enticing they often cause obsession. And it is the obsession, the conviction that results from this that is the direct problem.


Back to the books, I remain unconvinced and you remain convinced I don't think this will change anytime soon but I enjoyed the brief sojourn here. Take care

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I'm sorry I'm really not up for any more discussion as I see it going down the "u" "no" road and am honestly very hungover

Hopefully I have given some food for thought

[JustLikeYou]

Account1 (I really wish you had chosen a handle. I feel like we're conversing in a coffee house and you won't tell me your name), I think I'm beginning to understand where you're coming from now. You must have noticed a preponderance of cases in which new age ideology begins a downward spiral. That's worth consideration. And I'm not going to deny that the Ra Material is any less dangerous thereby. What you call cosmic philosophy can easily upset the inner balance. But that does not make the philosophy either false or inappropriate for distribution. It only makes it dangerous.

I don't really know of a ready solution to the dilemma. On the one hand, I endorse the philosophy. On the other hand, I don't want people to get committed to mental wards. How do you judge who is ready? And even if you could, what is there to be done about it now? The internet has ruined secrecy.

[Adonai One]

Any unseen potential that becomes a dependence is dangerous; And EVERY magical society, church and spiritual organization is nearly completely guilty of enslaving themselves to doctrine to the point to where if their faith is challenged, they become belligerent, agitated and sometimes violent. Academics on the other hand are at least willing to have a truth of the month and not take up arms to defend their new cosmological theory and hypothesis: They go to a f***ing lab and demonstrate their ideas to a panel of peers like gentlemen.

I don't even think people who keep this stuff secret are stable. Almost every mystic on this planet is missing the foundational work of detachment and the acknowledgement of the possibility that their stuff is not true, not useful and not applicable to everyone.

[Learner]

...
You would think that most people in this day and age would be able to entertain ideas without accepting them as absolute truth
...

Apparently you don't think the "you guys" here on this forum are like most people... we must be some special people... but wait, that only confirms our pathological obsessions... Well, sorry to inform you, we are just like most people.

[Parsons]

By the way, are you an ISTJ, INTJ, or ESTJ?

INTP, though the myer briggs categories aren't really worth much save a bit of fun

Wow... I'm a bit shocked. I'm an INTP (although I am borderline INTJ). Despite you not putting much stock into it, that's the most amusing thing I've seen all day...

[Adonai One]

INTP borderline INTJ here as well.

[Account1]

Apparently you don't think the "you guys" here on this forum are like most people... we must be some special people... but wait, that only confirms our pathological obsessions... Well, sorry to inform you, we are just like most people.

Your defense mechanism is showing.

I really wish you had chosen a handle. I feel like we're conversing in a coffee house and you won't tell me your name

I'm just a student (literally, too young to be a professional) who believes it is his responsibility to understand. I pursued this particular avenue of learning because of my experiences. What I've seen far more often than people getting committed to wards are people just losing touch with reality in their day to day lives, these people I noticed often would viciously defend notions of transcendence, a relationship with the paranormal/aliens and the divine nature of their experience. So I attempted to understand these people, I read their books explored their worldviews and mythologies and thus am here.

[Adonai One]

You're very intelligent to explore here in regards to this problem, very intelligent to desire to understand this type of person in this regard.

[Account1]

It's worth adding that I've been familiar with these books for over a year now, my attitude towards the new age movement was much more lenient when I initially read the books, my interpretation was not tainted by prejudice.

[Adonai One]

Do you find the moral relativism of The Law of One dangerous?

1.7: In truth there is no right or wrong. There is no polarity for all will be, as you would say, reconciled at some point in your dance through the mind/body/spirit complex which you amuse yourself by distorting in various ways at this time. This distortion is not in any case necessary. It is chosen by each of you as an alternative to understanding the complete unity of thought which binds all things. You are not speaking of similar or somewhat like entities or things. You are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. You are unity. You are infinity. You are love/light, light/love. You are. This is the Law of One.