the amish dont get autism: VACCINES

[xlsander]

Moderator note: 2 vaccination threads merged


this weekend at the new world conference in zürich there has been a huge controversial panel duscussion
about vaccines at the new world conference.

dan bursich was saying he believed that viruses and vaccines were real and have helped many people in the past -
also he said the new flu "versions" have different attributes and old vaccines would therefore not work.

on the other hand the audience, david wilcock (who suffered from swine flu earlier and got healthy again apparently due to the reason of a flu shot as a child) and bill ryan having the concerns that we are dealing with not trustworthy vaccine manufacturers and governmental structures ...

so this discussion is not yet concluded - i personally believe vaccines help and have helped, however i also do believe
we cant trust the current governments and manufacturers - that is why dan burisch said he is working on getting database information to evaluate this as much as possible...

[Monica]

on the other hand the audience, david wilcock (who suffered from swine flu earlier and got healthy again apparently due to the reason of a flu shot as a child) and bill ryan having the concerns that we are dealing with not trustworthy vaccine manufacturers and governmental structures ...

Are you saying that David Wilcock was advocating in favor of vaccinations? Am I understanding you correctly?

I find this surprising!

[xlsander]

no he was not - but dan put him on the spot asking him if he had swine flu - i did not understand correctly at what time exactly - so david confirmed yes he had swine flu - and dan asked him if he had ever been vaccinated since dan believed this is what had have healed david - and david said he was vaccinated the standard accinations when he was a kid.

but prior to that the question from the audience was someone asking what to do since in israel they had been pushing the vaccine issue and david clearly stated quote "get the hell out of israel"

[peelstreetguy]

Yes, that's right, the vaccine is full of poison, untested, and most likely useless! This is a topic that really disturbs me because a lot of people just believe all the fearmongering over the H1N1 flu. That fact is that it is less dangerous than the regular flues. This is another giant scam!!!
So what we have here are many people poisoning themselves and their children out of fear that is made up by our wonderfull governments and big pharma. For them it's great! they get to poison you and make big money off of it at the same time!
What really blows my mind is that people are getting their kids vaccinated without even doing a shred of research on it!!! In 5 minutes of reaserch I found enough info about the vaccine to scare the crap out of me.
So if you're one of those people that think you and your kids should get the vaccine, I strongly suggest reading the following links. The first video sums it up pretty good. the other links are the info leaflet that comes with the vaccine as well as other articles of interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r051fXtfng8

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/13516797/H1N...ngredients

http://preventdisease.com/news/09/102609...ysis.shtml

http://preventdisease.com/news/09/092109...ings.shtml



If this thread keeps even a few people from getting poisoned, then It was worth writing.
Remember that every time you get a vaccine, you add more mercury into your body. Mercury NEVER leaves the body!!! So it adds up in your body with every vaccine you get. Mercury is linked with Alzheimers..... Vaccines are also now being linked with Autism in children....Their is no real scientific evidence that ANY vaccine has EVER worked!!! Don't believe me? prove me wrong then. Find a proper scientific study that proves vaccines work. You won't be able to because one does not exist!

[fairyfarmgirl]

Agreed! Here are some more resources to consider.

Medical Doctor retracts advice given to nurses to get the swine flu vaccine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r051fXtfn...r_embedded

Also here is a list of the Swine Flu vaccine ingredients. The Swine Flu Vaccine is meant to take your immune system offline so you will be susceptible to the "Ukraine" Flu. http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?c...&aid=16088 Which the CDC is "saying" is a "mutation" of Swine Flu. Right... And how bout some Jim Jones Kool aid too.

--fairyfarmgirl

Ingredients to Swine Flu Vaccines
http://articles. mercola.com/ sites/articles/ archive/2001/ 03/07/vaccine- ingredients. aspx " target=_blank><http://articles.+mercola.com/+sites/articles/+archive/2001/+03/07/vaccine-+ingredients.+aspx>

According to the above site, this is what is in the "Swine-Flu" Vaccine:aluminum hydroxide
aluminum phosphate
ammonium sulfate
amphotericin B
animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain,
dog kidney, monkey kidney,
chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
calf (bovine) serum
betapropiolactone
fetal bovine serum
formaldehyde
formalin
gelatin
glycerol
human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
hydrolized gelatin
monosodium glutamate (MSG)
neomycin
neomycin sulfate
phenol20red indicator
phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
potassium diphosphate
potassium monophosphate
polymyxin B
polysorbate 20
polysorbate 80
porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
residual MRC5 proteins
sorbitol
sucrose
thimerosal (mercury)tri(n)butylphosphat e,
VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells
washed sheep red blood cells

[airwaves]

Yes, that's right, the vaccine is full of poison, untested, and most likely useless! This is a topic that really disturbs me because a lot of people just believe all the fearmongering over the H1N1 flu. That fact is that it is less dangerous than the regular flues. This is another giant scam!!!
So what we have here are many people poisoning themselves and their children out of fear that is made up by our wonderfull governments and big pharma. For them it's great! they get to poison you and make big money off of it at the same time!
What really blows my mind is that people are getting their kids vaccinated without even doing a shred of research on it!!! In 5 minutes of reaserch I found enough info about the vaccine to scare the crap out of me.
So if you're one of those people that think you and your kids should get the vaccine, I strongly suggest reading the following links. The first video sums it up pretty good. the other links are the info leaflet that comes with the vaccine as well as other articles of interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r051fXtfng8

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/13516797/H1N...ngredients

http://preventdisease.com/news/09/102609...ysis.shtml

http://preventdisease.com/news/09/092109...ings.shtml



If this thread keeps even a few people from getting poisoned, then It was worth writing.
Remember that every time you get a vaccine, you add more mercury into your body. Mercury NEVER leaves the body!!! So it adds up in your body with every vaccine you get. Mercury is linked with Alzheimers..... Vaccines are also now being linked with Autism in children....Their is no real scientific evidence that ANY vaccine has EVER worked!!! Don't believe me? prove me wrong then. Find a proper scientific study that proves vaccines work. You won't be able to because one does not exist!

Well as you well know by now; I was recently employed at a turkey proccessing plant. Over the last month, and just on my shift, there were about 40 people to got the "chicken cough". this figure does not include the families of said employees, and I did talk to a few poeple who said there children and spouse also contracted it from them. In each case that I investigated said sick person required two shots of the vaccine and it did in fact rid them of the flu. Yes, I am sure they had H1N1. And, yes, they were all cured, being that they did not spread it to anyone else. I made a point to observe this. To make you feel a bit better my friend the seasonal flu has much worse symtoms than said swine flu. To say that the vaccine is poison is quite silly and to say that it does not cure them even sillier, and you would probably agree if you had been there in the trenches with me. Doing battle with the beast. I am not saying that it is good for you, no vaccine is if you actually know what a vaccine is. A handy-capped version of the dissease being injected into your viens so that your immune system can lay the beatdown on it and produce the correct antibodies. Besides there are bssically no medicines other than the naturall ones that are good for you these days. It may cure depression but it will make you commit suicide! ..................Please!

I think that we can chalk up this whole swine flu thing with the global warming scam as you call it. Just another money making sceme, and a step towards a global government. But really, is a global government so bad? Global healthcare? Then all of that food our government buys from the farmers to keep them from going under that is going to waste can be given freely to the poor starving kids in africa and asia. All of humanity united? Idc how corrupt the leader(s) is(are), its worth it.

[Peregrinus]

Having a vaccine injection (or two) after one has already contracted the flu or other viral infection is of no use whatsoever unless you are trying to increase the odds of fatality. A vaccine (is supposed to) provide the body the ability to naturally make antibodies to fight the infection off. If the infection is already established, addition of more (though supposedly inert) virus will not stop the original infection. It will, however, increase the odds of the infecting virus becoming stronger.

I think that we can chalk up this whole swine flu thing with the global warming scam as you call it. Just another money making sceme, and a step towards a global government. But really, is a global government so bad? Global healthcare? Then all of that food our government buys from the farmers to keep them from going under that is going to waste can be given freely to the poor starving kids in africa and asia. All of humanity united? Idc how corrupt the leader(s) is(are), its worth it.

A global government wouldn't be so bad, I agree. A global government run by the corrupt, however, would as much as wipe 1/5th of the population from the face of the earth in order to control and manipulate the remaining people for their own use. Which one do you think we would end up with, given earth's track record?

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." ~Lord Acton

At any rate, this will not happen. We are being watched and taken care of by our loving elder brothers.

This thread borders on fear-mongering, people. Leave the constraints of the ape mind behind and live in faith and love. No one will be left behind during the harvest. All is as it is meant to be.

[peelstreetguy]

-Peregrinus is quite right about it being useless to take a vaccine for something you already have.


-Living in faith and love does not require living in ignorance of the loyal opposition. This post was meant to be informative, not to fear-monger. Sometimes the truth can be frightening. what's more frightening to me is to be ignorant of the truth and believe in the lies.

[Ali Quadir]

Lets check the facts people...
Vaccines have been proven to work again and again... Open pubmed... www.pubmed.com, search for "vaccine efficacy" and you get pages of research indicating the effect. The principle is sound and the principle works..
You challenged me to find one example.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5718a5.htm
The amount of cases of measles in the USA has dropped from 750.000 to fewer than 100 in the last few years directly due to vaccination.

However, this doesn't mean it's not damaging in other ways. And I don't believe vaccines are without risk.

Now I appreciate the full ingredient list. But instead of just panicking, lets look at it in detail.. And then we can panic with the confidence of understanding why we panic

aluminum phosphate aka baking powder, it's in your food.
ammonium sulfate used mostly in fertilizers, it's in your food.
amphotericin B This is nasty stuff, it's a fungicide. It's potentially lethal in larger doses and has nasty but short term side effects.
animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain,
dog kidney, monkey kidney,
chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
calf (bovine) serum If you ever ate pig or an omelet, you received this in much larger doses.
betapropiolactone is suspected to be a factor in cancers.
fetal bovine serum This is just bio matter. Nothing weird about it, they use it to grow the virus and remainders of it end up in the vaccine.
formaldehyde it's basically a toxin used to kill bacteria and cells, to keep the vaccine clear of infections. However, it's not healthy for humans either. In large doses it can cause allergies, and cancers.
formalin is another name for a treated formaldehyde. The only other ingredients are water and methanol which is alcohol, large doses are drunk for example in Russia and can lead to blindness. The dose in a vaccine offcourse won't even get you drunk let alone damage you.
gelatinAlso in your food.
glycerol In soaps and food.
human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue) Sounds bad and maybe it is but it's not poison.
hydrolized gelatin It's in your food.
monosodium glutamate (MSG)Used in foods to make them taste better. They say it's a reason for obesity.
neomycin it's another antibiotic also used in creams and lotions.
neomycin sulfateA nasty version that can act as a toxin to humans.
phenol20red indicatorIt's a remainder of the work on the virus. I can't find any detrimental effects.
phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)Kills bacteria and is often used in desinfectant soaps and lotions.
potassium diphosphate It's a food additive. It's considered safe.
potassium monophosphateAlso a food additive.
polymyxin BAn anti biotic, used in medical salves.
polysorbate 20 Used in soaps and detergents.
polysorbate 80Often used in food.
porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein The by product of milk being broken down with acids. Happens in the body after ingesting milk.
residual MRC5 proteins These are the cells the virus was cultivated with. They are human cells the remainder of an abortion in 1966 that have been cultivated since...
sorbitol an artificial sweetener.
sucrose aka table sugar
thimerosal (mercury)tri(n)butylphosphat e, This is the current candidate for controversy, some have linked this to autism, but research in the matter failed to back this up with evidence. Mercury itself is linked with neurological problems. But we use mercury in dental work, large quantities have been dumped in the oceans or blown into the air and we pretty much ingest more of it every time we eat fish. So why is it the vaccine and not last friday's fish & chips?
VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells
washed sheep red blood cells These two are the same as the human cells. It's biological tissue and not dangerous in itself.

Thiomersal is a clear point of controversy, and some of the other antibacterial and anti fungal agents can't be healthy either. I see no immediate reason to be alarmed about the vaccine because of this list though. You can pretty much discard the food additives. And mercury will damage you with or without vaccines. At least with a vaccine you know you'll be killed by mercury and not by the flu. I know.. It's depressing...

There were massive voluntary vaccinations of children and pregnant women where I am in the last few weeks. I haven't seen any reports of deaths or serious problems. If they exist they are rare.

The ingredients of this list will either cause autism or immediate violent responses. The clear responses haven't occurred. We can't check for autism yet. But I see no immediate reason to believe that connection. And really why would they want to give the world autism? Most of the autistic are hardly recognizable as such by non professionals. Some of you must have some autistic traits. And are probably putting them to good use. I know I am. ( I looked up the ingredients above, right? )

My current hypothesis just like airwaves, is not as nasty as the toxic vaccine hypothesis. But it is still nasty. After the economic crash last year. Large pharmaceuticals were among the biggest victims financially. How do you fix this as a proactive group of companies with major influence in all the worlds major health institutions? Simple, you exaggerate the next disease around the corner that you can make a story about. And get the health institutions to sing along. Then you sell major medicine and vaccines. And you get to retain your multi million dollar bonuses for that year.

If this is what is going on then it's theft... We're being robbed right after we've lost a lot of our money supplies already. I think however that fortunately it's not murder. It's an actual vaccine with the usual risks associated with vaccines against a random but statistically speaking harmless flu.

I won't take a vaccine, against this flu because there is no need for it. I don't think I will die if I take it. But I will be taking a small and not required risk with my health. Those in risk groups might come to different conclusions though. I'd also like an official and open inquiry after why on earth anyone ever thought differently. I want this to be treated as a case of potential fraud. Because that's what it looks like to me.

Potentially we can follow up with accusations of taking unnecessary risks with the worlds health by needlessly pushing an insufficiently tested vaccine. It's probably as safe as every other flu vaccine so far. And they know that's not a guarantee so they want the customers to surrender their rights to sue them in case of side effects...

In the days since the first flu "outbreaks" 2.7 million have died of aids, millions more have been infected. I'm not even talking about cardio vascular issues or cancer. And yet we're talking about a flu.

http://i.imgur.com/rQj3R.jpg

I know I don't follow the preferred fear porn philosophy. I don't think the negative elite are as powerful as is often suggested. I see them scrambling to maintain the status quo of their worlds. Suddenly their assets vaporized. They want to reestablish their de-facto power. And the rest of us is just being gullible, trusting in the outside authority, but learning in the process that that's a bad idea.

[transiten]

Hello

I might add some fuel to the debate. Go to www.theflucase.com
What do i know? Some may be true some not. I will not take the shot anyway. I eat vitamin D3 and C wash my hands and avoid big gatherings. I even postponed my birthdayparty until

"The 16:th of may
when the flue has flown away"

transiten

[Brittany]

The little voice in my head strongly suggested I not get vaccinated. I listened to it. I'm at peace with it no matter what happens.

[Eneary]

Right... And how bout some Jim Jones Kool aid too.

But it's cherry Kool-aid, and it's tastes so good, I feel like I'm in heaven! Oh wait, I think I am...

Sorry, I had to. Anyway, yeah, this vaccine is just absolutely terrible, all around. There's no reason to take this at all. It's a sharp prick in your arm (bad), it causes swelling and bruising (bad), it gives you a bio-weapon grade cocktail of chemicals (bad), and it doesn't even make you immune to the flu! Like I mean, come on big pharma, at least the Kool-aid had something. It was kool-aid, and left you with a tasty flavor in your mouth, for however long you had left to live after you drank it. By these standards, Jim Jones > Big Pharmaceuticals

[C-JEAN]

Hi, no-swine fans !

See a Solid intelligent ANGRY speaker ! !:

Scientific voice speaks intelligently about the vaccine

Anyone with small children or aging parents will be especially
interested in this. I know there has been a lot of hype and hearsay
from both sides of the debate, but this Dr/scientist has done the
research of the research that was suppose to have been done and found
very different results. He covers H1N1 and other vaccines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3XlJB7J5...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch5OuzB9L48&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAgWO2yq1...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsZb2LRnO...re=related

Blue skies.

[transiten]

Thanks C-Jean!

Reminds me of Jesus throwing the hawkers out of the temple! Some Loving Wholy Wrath:@

transiten

[Monica]

Lets check the facts people...
Vaccines have been proven to work again and again... Open pubmed... www.pubmed.com, search for "vaccine efficacy" and you get pages of research indicating the effect. The principle is sound and the principle works..

I would definitely, most emphatically, and yet respectfully disagree with you on this, dear friend! :-/

What are facts? Depends on whom you ask!

I guess anything could be serious - even the flu - for certain people under certain conditions. That's why I think our own personal guidance should be taken into account.

I haven't kept up with all the newer vaccines, since my son is now 21. I definitely think we should follow our own guidance not let the docs pressure us. I got bitten by a dog in the face about 10 years ago and the people in the emergency room were so pushy, and because the would went thru my lip, they pressured me and used fear tactics about having to reopen the wound later due to infection and tearing up my face, that I let them talk me into a DT shot...much to my regret later! I felt like I had a rock in my arm for years afterwards, and my health declined (not sure if there was a connection or not). I know they thought they were doing the right thing, but, looking back, I can't believe I let them coerce me out of fear! I was in a vulnerable position and succumbed to the fear tactics.

Deciding whether to vaccinate or not was the most difficult decision I ever made while parenting. I agonized over this decision! When I was pregnant, I thought anyone who didn't vaccinate was guilty of child abuse! But, thankfully, a friend suggested I research the issue, and I am so glad I did! I was stunned at what I found! Something I had never questioned turned out to be a really huge issue. I won't even say 'controversial' because I truly do believe that, once adequate research has been done, it ceases to be a controversy for that person. At least that was my conclusion!

I researched the issue at length, and finally decided that I was more scared of the vaccines than of the illness! The risk was just not worth it. With the only exception being tetanus. That was the ONLY one that showed clear impact on the illness, with minimal risks. All the others showed questionable benefit, with very real risks.

I read a lot of bad stuff on whooping cough, diphtheria, etc. Also whenever there's been a measles outbreak, most of the kids were vaccinated, so the vaccine didn't even protect them. The video posted below is a real eye-opener!

20 years ago all I had was books, but I remember reading a book that showed the graph of polio and other diseases, and they were already declining (as per normal cycles of diseases) BEFORE the vaccines were introduced! But only a small portion of the graph was shown by the CDC, leaving out the decline...ie. as the saying goes "Figures don't lie but liars figure."

Another major factor in my decision was whether there were natural alternatives. I found homeopathic, herbal, and other alternative treatments for all the diseases I researched EXCEPT tetanus! Even naturopathic/homeopathic docs said to go to a hospital in case of tetanus, and even then the treatment was very serious and expensive, and the person could still die! Add to that, the fact that staying healthy with a strong immune system offered very little protection...and it could happen from only a scratch which might not even be noticed...all those factors put together made tetanus much more scary than the vaccine, and the vaccine offered real protection because even the natural anti-vaccine docs admit that in the case of tetanus, the decline was clearly from the vaccine.

More:

Statistics...Govt. data showing that mortality from various infectious diseases in various countries had already declined before introduction of vaccines...animal proteins being injected directly into bloodstream and its effect on the immune system...'Atypical Measles' etc.

Vaccination - The Hidden Truth (parts 1 - 9)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC20RVbWc-E

(If the links don't work, do a youtube search fro Vaccination - The Hidden Truth)

See also: CDC chief admits connection between autism & vaccines...CDC estimates 1 in 50 kids has this predisposition - that's a 2% risk for a life-long neurological impairment!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh-nkD5LS...re=related


---
Did you know ...

... infectious diseases were over 90% resolved by the time vaccines came onto the market?
...there are now 33 vaccines that are mandated by the time your child is 6 years old? and 40 by age 16?
...that before 1991 there was no system in place for reporting adverse vaccine reactions whatsoever?
...that only one country in Europe still has mandated DPT shots, whereas the US still requires 4 separate doses?
... 43% of Gulf War veterans experienced side effects to vaccines?
... 80,000 Gulf War vets have permanent medical conditions as a result of vaccinations?
... that vaccination is not immunization?
... that Hepatitis B vaccine was outlawed in France after 15,000 citizens filed a class action suit against the government?
...that vaccines do not have to be proven safe and effective in order to be added to the list of mandated shots for American children?
...the the mercury in most vaccines is dozens of times in excess of EPA safe levels?
... that there are many new vaccines in the pipeline trying to get FDA approval so they can be tacked onto the mandated schedule?
... that vaccination is a multi-billion dollar industry in the US?
... that the US Congress has recently discovered rampant conflict of interest between the FDA and the vaccine manufacturers?
... that in the past 20 years, autism has gone from being almost completely unknown to an epidemic that now affects as many as one in every 150 American children?
... that the drug companies are not required to prove that vaccines will not cause cancer, and that no testing for carcinogenicity is even done before a vaccine is approved?
... that all states but two have very simple exemption forms by which a parent can choose to forego all vaccines for the child?

http://www.greaterthings.com/News/daily/...tion_link/

http://www.vaccination.inoz.com/about.html

Regarding the ingredients in vaccines:

1) There is no safe level for some of these poisons, such as formaldehyde and mercury, even if one of them was consumed or injected on its own.

2) Even if the quantity of any given ingredient was within a safe level, remember that a large number of these are being taken in all at once, which can lead to the accumulative toxicity being much higher.

3) Poisons such as formaldehyde and mercury are well known to have a sensitising effect on the body, i.e. they cause increased susceptibility to any foreign substance that it might encounter at the same time or in the future.

4) Even the manufacturers admit to a large list of adverse effects of vaccines, including even death.

The resultant damage, including brain damage, from these toxins can vary from mild enough not to be apparent, through to severe, in some cases death. You cannot inject a living being with these poisons and expect there to be no adverse effect at all. What varies, and varies greatly, is merely the degree of damage. The reason for the large variation in this degree of damage include:

*

great genetic variations in recipients, affecting susceptibility in general and susceptibility to specific vaccines
*

variations within one recipient from one time to another (due to biorhythms, other work the immune system is doing already fighting other infections, how many vaccines have already been given, etc), and
*

variations between vaccine batches - there is an acknowledged weakness in the area of controlling the levels of toxins in vaccines, resulting in some batches being labeled "hot lots". (Sadly even this identification does not necessarily result in recalls, but rather in distributing the "hot lot" as broadly as possible, as revealed in a leaked letter from a pharmaceutical company.)

For chemical profiles and definitions, visit http://www.scorecard.org/.

Sources: EDF (Environmental Defense Fund) & MME (Mosby's Medical Encyclopaedia)

I also suggest checking out mercola.com on vaccinations:

http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/links.htm

I do NOT agree with Dr. Mercola on everything...for example he is very biased against vegetarianism...but he does a good job of exposing the corruption in the medical industry and has a HUGE library on well-documented vaccine info!

...also do a search for homeopathy and vaccinations.

[airwaves]

Having a vaccine injection (or two) after one has already contracted the flu or other viral infection is of no use whatsoever unless you are trying to increase the odds of fatality. A vaccine (is supposed to) provide the body the ability to naturally make antibodies to fight the infection off. If the infection is already established, addition of more (though supposedly inert) virus will not stop the original infection. It will, however, increase the odds of the infecting virus becoming stronger.

Well that certainly makes sense, but tell that to the poor people that got 2 shots to the buttocks.

All in all I really dont care............. Things just tend to work out for me, and I am starting to see that there, still, is not any reason for me to get worked up about it all. I did want to put down a seemingly fear based post before people started foaming at the mouths lol.

Anyway back to my book lol, I am working on the Dark Tower series by Stephen King.

L/L

[Ali Quadir]

I am going to have to study the material you provided dear Monica... Thank you so much for taking the time to put it all in.

Before anything else, let me assure you that I do not believe vaccinations to be a panacea, I just believe them to be potentially better than the diseases they protect us against.

Lets be clear, it is poisonous chemicals that we're talking about here. However, the dosage is low. Also the companies involved are clearly unethical but this does not detract from the principle.

The question isn't so much are they safe.... The question is if we inject a million kids, how many are going to die compared to if we don't...

[Lorna]

The question isn't so much are they safe.... The question is if we inject a million kids, how many are going to die compared to if we don't...

i respectfully disagree with you on that one ali:

"The price we have to pay for living longer due to control of these maladies is an increase in allergies and autoimmune disorders"
from Inverse relationship between decreased infectious diseases and increased inflammatory disorder occurrence: the price to pay (2003)

and there are many many more medical research papers that link vaccinations with autoimmune disorders - so who is paying the price really and what is the price?

are rising levels of chronic, and lethal, diseases like ms and lupus, decades of pain from rheumatoid arthritis, children with multiple sensitivies and anaphylactic shock reactions worth the benefits of vaccination? because after seeing people suffering and dying from these illnesses i very much question that vaccination is a risk worth taking now.

but if it is a price worth paying then why isn't the medical profession honest about the real long term risks? because the risks are recognised, they are just not admitted to and there really hasn't been much research done into it.

anyway... sorry to rant - just to my mind it really isn't a black and white issue

[peelstreetguy]

Thanks C-Jent! Great vids!!!

Monica, Thanks for the exellent post! I'll have to check out the links.

Ali, I read the measles report you posted, but it doesn't count. The proper blinds were not in place to make it a proper scientific study, but nice try

[Monica]

I am going to have to study the material you provided dear Monica... Thank you so much for taking the time to put it all in.

You are quite welcome! Actually, I didn't spend too much time on it...I just reposted stuff I've posted before elsewhere. This is a hot topic for me so I've engaged in this discussion before! Also, my son, who did not get vaccinated, questioned my decision when he started dating a pro-vaccination medical student in college...so I had to present to him why my hubby and I made the decision we did. That was fun!

Before anything else, let me assure you that I do not believe vaccinations to be a panacea, I just believe them to be potentially better than the diseases they protect us against.

That's what I thought too at one time. But that presupposes that:

a.) vaccines work

and

b.) there aren't alternative methods for treating the diseases

Upon researching the issue, I found a.) to be quite questionable, even indisputably false in many cases. (Case in point: Ever wonder why pro-vaccination people make such a big deal about those who choose to not vaccinate? If their vaccines worked reliably, then why should they care if some people choose to not vaccinate? I've seen parents really freak out when they find out a child in their midst isn't vaccinated. Say, what?? What's the big deal if their own children are 'immune?' The truth is that they're not immune! And the medical industry knows it!)

And b.) is quite true, but unbeknownst to most people. Did you know that there is clinical evidence showing that homeopathic treatments got better results than conventional treatments during the polio epidemic and other epidemics? See the works of Dr. Dorothy Shepherd, a British MD/homeopath.

So, I agree with Lorna, that it's not a black-and-white issue. It's not nearly as simplistic as the medical industry would like us to believe.

Lets be clear, it is poisonous chemicals that we're talking about here. However, the dosage is low.

What is 'low?' The drug companies have not shown any studies proving that the 'low' dosages aren't harmful. Also, take into consideration that the toxins are compounded. For example, I once read an article in a mainstream magazine that toddlers by age 2 had already received their lifetime's allotment of individual pesticides! But that wasn't even taking into consideration the potential effects of multiple pesticides interacting with one another!

Likewise, a newborn baby is given a cocktail of toxic ingredients, at a time when his/her immune system is immature. Add to that the fact that this cocktail is injected directly into the bloodstream, with preservatives such as formaldehyde which keep the body from breaking it down and eliminating it. I find the very idea very creepy!

Meanwhile, the medical industry keeps people in the dark about the myriad things they can do to naturally strengthen their immune systems as well as treat illnesses using alternative healing modalities.

Case in point: Right now, how often do you hear mention of the importance of vitamin D in combating the flu? This is well documented, but is the media talking about it? No! They're pushing their vaccines, but ignoring such an important, simple, and inexpensive safeguard against the flu. It's criminal!

Also the companies involved are clearly unethical but this does not detract from the principle.

I think it does detract, in the sense that we really can't trust their statistics. I've already shown (in the above posted video) how they manipulated the graphs which had the effect of misleading the public. In addition, data is only as good as the ability to properly gather it. I read (in books written by MDs) that whenever a parent reported a side effect from a vaccine, doctors and nurses routinely didn't report it as such....when a child who had been vaccinated for measles got measles, it was often not recorded as measles ("That can't be measles...he's been vaccinated!"). In other words, can you say, B-I-A-S?

Add to that, poor reporting methods thru no fault of anyone, and you've got a very skewed picture of the true degree of side effects.

Add to that, the long-term side effects which aren't linked to the vaccines because no one has ever done a fair, unbiased study seeking that link! Ie. if the drug companies don't fund a study to determine the link between a vaccine and a disease, that doesn't necessarily mean no such link exists.

The whole autism situation is a horrible mess, with those children and parents having to pay a heavy price...there's too much politics involved for honesty in this case. Drug companies don't want to be found liable...if they proved it with one vaccine, it would establish a precedent and open the floodgates for other side effects, of other vaccines. They won't let that happen!

I know 2 women who are military nurses. Both of them told me that if anyone comes to the hospital with a sniffle, they have been instructed to record it as swine flu. ??? No verification. None. This is a clear example of inaccurate reporting.

The question isn't so much are they safe.... The question is if we inject a million kids, how many are going to die compared to if we don't...

Lorna has already responded to this and I agree with her! It's not a simple equation of die/not die. It's far, far more complex than that!

I appreciate your willingness to investigate the other side of the issue, Ali!

[Peregrinus]

Also the companies involved are clearly unethical but this does not detract from the principle.

Communism is a beautiful principle. The only problem with it is that there are men involved.

[transiten]

Hi everybody and monica! applause!

Once again. Go to www.theflucase.com , some meay be exaggerated but no smoke without fire! I take myself vitamin C, and D 6000IU a day and what more i'm on a homeopathic cure for my thyroid gland that also strenghtens my immunesystem. If i get any flu i will have Quentakehl, a homeopathic penicillin that kill all viruses.

I consult the leading alternative therapist in Sweden who is the physiscian-in-ordinary to one of the great spiritual leaders of India who traded ayurveda the traditional spiritual healthsystem of India for this doc's treatment.

Why do you think the EU are trying to prohibit alternative drugs and medicine? They say there's "no controlsystem" Well why not install one an start making it work for big pharma also:@

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[Ali Quadir]

"The price we have to pay for living longer due to control of these maladies is an increase in allergies and autoimmune disorders"
from Inverse relationship between decreased infectious diseases and increased inflammatory disorder occurrence: the price to pay (2003)

Like I said, I didn't claim it to be fully safe. It's a transaction, you take a risk on one end to improve the chances on another end.

Most of the ingredients that cause problems in a vaccine are present in our food. I've shown this when I went through the list. For consistency I want to hear people complain about the presence of the ingredients in our environment. Not just about the minimal amount in the vaccine.

and there are many many more medical research papers that link vaccinations with autoimmune disorders - so who is paying the price really and what is the price?

Can you show me these papers? I looked for evidence about this, but could not find it quickly.

are rising levels of chronic, and lethal, diseases like ms and lupus, decades of pain from rheumatoid arthritis, children with multiple sensitivies and anaphylactic shock reactions worth the benefits of vaccination? because after seeing people suffering and dying from these illnesses i very much question that vaccination is a risk worth taking now.

You're assuming the two are linked up, there is no evidence to support that at this time.. There is however very clear evidence that if we stop vaccinations on a massive scale right now we're going to lose a lot of kids due to polio small pox, measles and other diseases that have essentially been eradicated.

So which do you prefer? An astmatic kid or a dead one? And that's assuming that there is a causal connection. When I was a kid I played in hay stacks and fields we swam in natural water that was known to be infected with germs (our solution: don't swallow or drink it) and we even regularly explored the sewers. Kids these days, get to play video games. The sterile environments of today have also been linked to autoimmune disorders.

but if it is a price worth paying then why isn't the medical profession honest about the real long term risks? because the risks are recognised, they are just not admitted to and there really hasn't been much research done into it.

Show me please where they recognized it without researching it, that seems very unlikely to me.

anyway... sorry to rant - just to my mind it really isn't a black and white issue

I fully agree... I don't claim it's good stuff. I think we're overdosing on the vaccines. I think there are negative side effects. I just don't think it's as simple as stopping to do it then... If we stopped vaccinating our kids, it'd be like inviting the horseman named pestilence over for tea.

Before anything else, let me assure you that I do not believe vaccinations to be a panacea, I just believe them to be potentially better than the diseases they protect us against.

That's what I thought too at one time. But that presupposes that:

a.) vaccines work

Which is evident.

b.) there aren't alternative methods for treating the diseases

An alternative method to treat the disease also has side effects may not work and usually is much less preferable to just not getting the disease.

Upon researching the issue, I found a.) to be quite questionable, even indisputably false in many cases. (Case in point: Ever wonder why pro-vaccination people make such a big deal about those who choose to not vaccinate? If their vaccines worked reliably, then why should they care if some people choose to not vaccinate? I've seen parents really freak out when they find out a child in their midst isn't vaccinated. Say, what?? What's the big deal if their own children are 'immune?' The truth is that they're not immune! And the medical industry knows it!)

Everyone should know this! It's obvious. Vaccination does not guarantee immunity, it creates a much stronger immunity response. Which is the point, and which is also the claim. Your suggestion that they claim immunity isn't true. Either you misunderstood their claims or heard it from someone who doesn't understand how it works himself.

And b.) is quite true, but unbeknownst to most people. Did you know that there is clinical evidence showing that homeopathic treatments got better results than conventional treatments during the polio epidemic and other epidemics? See the works of Dr. Dorothy Shepherd, a British MD/homeopath.

This isn't a relevant side track.. I believe in homeopathy. I know there is much evidence for it. I don't know about this particular case but I'll take it as read.

So, I agree with Lorna, that it's not a black-and-white issue. It's not nearly as simplistic as the medical industry would like us to believe.

You have to understand that you're listening to the channels of the sellers to the average and usually pretty uninformed and uninterested population. If you look at the science then no one is painting a black and white picture at all.

Lets be clear, it is poisonous chemicals that we're talking about here. However, the dosage is low.

What is 'low?' The drug companies have not shown any studies proving that the 'low' dosages aren't harmful. Also, take into consideration that the toxins are compounded. For example, I once read an article in a mainstream magazine that toddlers by age 2 had already received their lifetime's allotment of individual pesticides! But that wasn't even taking into consideration the potential effects of multiple pesticides interacting with one another!

Low is when you're getting more than the dose you're complaining about from your environment. So basically, if you complain about mercury in vaccines, which is the most valid of the complaints. Then you must also complain about the mercury in your food. Fish and seafood have a high dose of mercury. It's silly to ban vaccines because of mercury and then happily going off to eat a fish somewhere to celebrate. Not to mention the amount that's put in the air and the water through industrial pollution.

Likewise, a newborn baby is given a cocktail of toxic ingredients, at a time when his/her immune system is immature. Add to that the fact that this cocktail is injected directly into the bloodstream, with preservatives such as formaldehyde which keep the body from breaking it down and eliminating it. I find the very idea very creepy!

I find a lot of things creepy Monica... Do you use make up? Do you smoke? You're likely adding formaldehyde to your system.

Meanwhile, the medical industry keeps people in the dark about the myriad things they can do to naturally strengthen their immune systems as well as treat illnesses using alternative healing modalities.

This is a different topic, and I agree with you on that.

Case in point: Right now, how often do you hear mention of the importance of vitamin D in combating the flu? This is well documented, but is the media talking about it? No! They're pushing their vaccines, but ignoring such an important, simple, and inexpensive safeguard against the flu. It's criminal!

I called it that before.

The whole autism situation is a horrible mess, with those children and parents having to pay a heavy price...there's too much politics involved for honesty in this case. Drug companies don't want to be found liable...if they proved it with one vaccine, it would establish a precedent and open the floodgates for other side effects, of other vaccines. They won't let that happen!

No? There were actual experiments where they removed the mercury from the vaccines to test if there was a difference in people developing autism... There was no difference. It's a game of odds. If you put your money in the bank you're also taking a risk. If you're keeping it at home you're taking a risk.

I know 2 women who are military nurses. Both of them told me that if anyone comes to the hospital with a sniffle, they have been instructed to record it as swine flu. ??? No verification. None. This is a clear example of inaccurate reporting.

This is also not relevant to the issue of whether vaccination works..

Like I said, my theory is that the companies involved are robbing us.. So this misrepresenting of the facts is an expected part of that. I'm not calling them angels. Let that be clear.

The question isn't so much are they safe.... The question is if we inject a million kids, how many are going to die compared to if we don't...

Lorna has already responded to this and I agree with her! It's not a simple equation of die/not die. It's far, far more complex than that!

I appreciate your willingness to investigate the other side of the issue, Ali!

I'm sorry that I have not reached different conclusions....

I understand your concerns regarding the potential negative effects vaccination can have... These are known and not hidden even though you won't find them in the popular press. There have been reported cases of people dying or growing ill after receiving their vaccination possibly even because of it. And even when you had the shot you can still grow ill... Yes, this state of affair sucks.

But on the other hand...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_hepatitis

If you ban vaccination or undermine it's effect... Expect the above diseases to make a come back. Expect children to die and become deformed, and not just occasionally, expect to see them around regularly, expect to see what you can already see in the third world!

The draw back of anti vaccination is very clear. We've already seen in australia where the anti vaccination movement has been active for over a year or so now that these diseases are actually coming back. It's very very irresponsible to ban vaccinations...

We were not healthier 200 years ago. Life expectancy of the countries where people are vaccinated is drastically higher than countries where this does not happen. And so is quality of life.

[Aaron]

As it says in session 34:

"Questioner: Do what we call contagious diseases play any part in this process with respect to the unmanifested self?

Ra: I am Ra. These so-called contagious diseases are those entities of second-density which offer an opportunity for this type of catalyst. If this catalyst is unneeded, then these second-density creatures, as you would call them, do not have an effect. In each of these generalizations you may please note that there are anomalies so that we cannot speak to every circumstance but only to the general run or way of things as you experience them."

I interpret this to mean that whether consciously or subconsciously, you can have some degree of control over your body's system of processes when it comes to fighting off sickness. In other words, if you feel you are at risk of becoming sick, or you are "always becoming sick", that will be your reality. If you need to get sick to get better, that's what will happen. If you love your body, allowing the energy of the earth to flow through it, the "second-density creatures will have no effect". There is then a disclaimer stating that there are no absolutes and in the chaos of the world, even a lover without fear can become physically sick.

Personally, I haven't been vaccinated or been sick. I think you can either fear the sickness, or fear the "doctors and vaccinations" or process of becoming vaccinated. Either way will lead to some form of suffering, because fear always leads to suffering.

It is others' choice whether or not to vaccinate themselves or their children. If you are close enough to a situation where the outcome can be influenced by your love, then by all means allow the light to work through you. But I don't think fearing the vaccination process will bring anything good. Thank you for making the information available though.

[transiten]

Ali Quadir

Did you watch the video that C-Jean provided with the "angry scientist" mentionning among other things "The Gulff war syndrome" that affected the soldiers after the war? I would be very interested in you commenting him in the same way you answered monicas post; dividing every statement and questionning them. I don't have the whole picture myself so it's rather difficult to have any absolute opinion here. Are you also aware of the conspiracytheory that the vaccinesyringes contain nanochips?

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[Lorna]

To be honest Ali the papers I was aware of are ones my brother dug out and looked out on my behalf, he's a surgeon so has access to all the paid for journals and research databases. The papers I found freely availalbe on the web were a couple of veterinary medicine papers and the ongoing controversy over the link between the hep b jab and ms where there have been various studies - some claiming a link, others disputing a link (my best friend's mum who has become a good friend of mine developed her first ms symptoms within two weeks of a hep b jab in the 80s - guess which way i lean...). One vet paper i read basically summarised that the more commplex a vaccination the greater the likelihood of there being an abnormal immune response.

This was 3 years ago when i was trying to decide what to do about vaccinating my son and I was aware of a pattern of auto immune responses in my family that seemed to be directly linked to vaccination patters - my parents, me, my brother, maternal grandmother, paternal grandfather, paternal aunt, one maternal cousin and 2 paternal cousins have auto immune disorders. there is also a family history of allergies, in particular bad eczema outbreaks immediately following vaccination - me, my uncle, two cousins. With everyone in my immediate family having or having had an ai disorder with the notable exception of my sister who has no ai condition and no allergies, it seemed like more than a coincidence that she was the only person in my family who did not receive any childhood vaccinations (due to the concern over the whooping cough jab in the 70s) until she was eleven years old.

Anyway, so seeing that family pattern I was obviously already biased to the possibility that there was a link.

The outcome of the research that my brother did - because having had drug induced sle (lupus) for 3 years he is interested as he wants children one day - his conclusion was 'for an individual the risk of vaccination is always too great, for society as a whole the risk of not vaccinating is also too great' - or something along those lines. He also felt that there were papers 'missing' that obvious questions he would have asked, the research simply hasn't been done. As a victim of medical denial in the face of the bleeding obvious over his lupus side effect he perhaps has a different perspective from most people in the medical profession, and he is pretty scathing about the way medical research is funded and monitored.

On another note entirely, during the MMR debates in the 90s i vividly remember watching a live televised debate i think on channel 4 in the uk. the reason i remember it so vividly is because one of the pro-mmr doctors who i think was an immunologist said that the only section of the population that he would advise to avoid mmr was children of mothers who had auto immune disorders. since any future child of mine fell into that category my ears pricked up and i've always remembered it. however i can't find any trace of information like that anywhere else to refer you to.

Anyway... I shall try to stop rambling because I'm aware this is coming across as very subjective and lacking in evidence. I'm actually not anti-vaccination - alexander has had a number of single vaccinations, no more than one jab in any two week period, which actually means he has had more doses of vaccines than most children. i wanted him protected from horrible diseases, but i wanted him protected as safely as possible

what sickens me is that given that there are even at least suspicians about the link between ai and allergies and vaccinations, surely families at risk should be given that information? mothers with a medical history of eczema and hayfever are already warned about things like avoiding peanuts during pregnancy and nursing incase of triggering an allergy - and this is without any evidence to support it (actually quite the contrary based on nut consumption / allergy levels in high nut consumption populations such as china). so why arent' they being warned about other potential impacts on the health of their children.

the medical establishment is slow to move, and will be scared to move because any suggestion of any potential at risk group from vaccinations will drastically lower uptake rates becasue of media fearmongering, and so individuals go on being damaged.

there's no quick fix though - it's only very very recently that ai conditions have even started being looked at as a group, only 25 years ago that my mother was being accused of child abuse / stress because i had alopecia because hair loss 'must' be stress related as it wasn't even classed as an ai condition.

the immune system is incredibly complex and is actually one of the least well understood systems in the body. i do believe that the more is found out about the immune system the safer vaccines will become and that eventually one day at risk people will be advised to avoid vaccines, or at least there will be ways to lower the risk - who knows...

anyway, better get back to doing some work.... i'm broadly comfortable with the choices i've made over vaccination, but the way i have been spoken to by some medical professionals because of my decision is absolutley disgraceful

[Ali Quadir]

Did you watch the video that C-Jean provided with the "angry scientist" mentionning among other things "The Gulff war syndrome" that affected the soldiers after the war? I would be very interested in you commenting him in the same way you answered monicas post; dividing every statement and questionning them.

Please add the points you would like me to specifically answer. I don't have the time to summarize, itemize and then answer his points. But I will answer anything that has your specific interest.

In general. I don't disagree with the man. I think we only disagree on the issue whether vaccines do in fact work. He claims he can find no evidence. But that's absolutely not true. He claims there are too many scientists with conflicts of interests. But that's also not true. Vaccination isn't invented the last 50 years (the time the CDC was active). It's been understood for about 200 years now.

It's not the government telling us that vaccines work. It's 200 years of experience with vaccines that tells us it works.

Are they dangerous and damaging? Yes they probably are, but if the alternative is dangerous and damaging as well that might be worth it. Are there conflicts of interest and hidden agendas? Count on it. Were the gulf war soldiers vaccinated with a very damaging agent? Quite likely, something is going on there, like Null says, it's statistically impossible that these are just random events.

I'm not claiming there is a clear sky. I am just absolutely convinced that vaccination for serious diseases like polio or small pox is a very good idea.

Vaccinating people against a mild flu is irresponsible and dangerous unless of course these people are at risk of dying of a minor flu.

I don't have the whole picture myself so it's rather difficult to have any absolute opinion here. Are you also aware of the conspiracytheory that the vaccinesyringes contain nanochips?

I am aware of this. And let me be clear that I'm only commenting on the normal scientifically known effects of vaccination... If there is nano tech added then the rules change of course, but such theories would need to be backed up.. I don't really understand the idea how chipping the population would benefit the controllers. We're already practically chipped, maybe we don't have a chip in the body. But we can be traced through various other techniques.

Other than that... If the government wanted to nano chip the population, vaccination would be how they'd do it.

[fairyfarmgirl]

Lorna:

When I had my son vaccinated because I was ignorant of big pharma 8 years ago... I was schooled to believe "they(big pharma) was there to "help" us... yeah... help themselves to a steady supply of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for kids who are continually sick and unable to fully participate in life (thus really really limiting quality of life) and the STS crowd gets a yummy meal of FEAR...

I am familar with the full body eczema and also "autistic-spectrum" disorders. I recently just finished healing my son as much as I am able to... He is only mildly autistic acting now and all that remains is eczema/psorisis on his scalp and behind his ears. This is an incredible improvement since he was vaccinated 6 years ago. It has been an interesting ride... one that I would have preferred not taking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vaccinations are largely unnecessary. Sickness is closely tied in with cleanliness, diet and attitude. A better diet and more cleanliness leads to less sickness! It is really very simple... for homegrown Earth made viruses that is... for viruses made by the follies of MAN that is another story entirely.

--fairyfarmgirl

[Monica]

Like I said, I didn't claim it to be fully safe. It's a transaction, you take a risk on one end to improve the chances on another end.

It might be a fair transaction if the person understood the costs vs benefits on both sides of the transaction. But those costs and benefits are clouded by politics and greed.

Most of the ingredients that cause problems in a vaccine are present in our food. I've shown this when I went through the list. For consistency I want to hear people complain about the presence of the ingredients in our environment. Not just about the minimal amount in the vaccine.

Many people who are complaining about vaccines are indeed speaking out about food and environmental contamination as well! However, there is an important point you seem to have missed: There is a huge difference between breathing in or ingesting a substance vs injecting it. The body has a different mechanism for dealing with toxins ingested that doesn't address toxins injected.

[Lorna]

hi fairyfarmgirl - one of my friends had a similar experience, severe eczema reaction in the days following first vaccination and now severe sensitivities, particularly to detergents and more recently her little boy had a bad reaction to nuts so she has to carry an epi pen - scary stuff. she has a medical background and has done a phenomenal amount of research into vaccinations - so much so that when she tried to explain to me her concerns over the swine flu jab i honestly couldn't make head nor tail of what she was talking about lol!

was your son premature by any chance? one of my other friends has a 7 year old who was 8 weeks premature and very poorly, but was given his vaccinations 'as per the schedule' so at 8 weeks old which resulted in brain swelling, and he now has severe adhd and epilepsy - and yet his reaction was not recorded as a reaction to the vaccination, just a deterioration in his already poorly condition because vaccines are 'safe'. my friend was a very young mum who didn't understand what they were doing to her little boy and she's only just now putting the pieces together after her daughter developed bad eczema

it's so sad, and these reactions seem so common. i'm glad your son is improving - what a lucky boy to have you as his mummy