Degeneration of Society

[Shin'Ar]

"According to the Ancients, religion, philosophy, and science are the three parts of essential learning. Not one of these parts is capable if separated from the rest, of assuring the security of the human state. A government based upon one or even two of these parts must ultimately degenerate into a tyranny, either of men or of opinion." - Manly P. Hall

Yes, I know Hall was considered a Freemason of the highest degree. But that was not because he spent his life as a Freemason working up through the degrees. He was not. as a matter of fact he did not become a Freemason until that day he was granted the 33rd degree. He was granted that exalted title, the first of its kind ever awarded to one who had not come up through the ranks, in recognition and acknowledgment of the fact that all that he taught was in line with Freemasonic beliefs and understandings.

THAT my friends is not coincidence nor honorary glory dressing. That is ancient tradition giving way to obvious wisdom when it recognizes it.

Society today has this ongoing debate over religion in the schools and the extreme liberal attitudes being slowly imposed into the schools.

What are your thoughts on these issues?

Do you see school as the place for your children to be taught all aspects of society?

Do you believe that religion has no place in the school curriculum?

And what do you think about what Hall says about the three being inseparable on the quest for learned society? Do you think the lack of one of these ingredients might be why society is becoming degenerate?

[Patrick]

Spirituality and science doesn't have to be separate concepts.

The concept of money and "jobs" truly are the most successful endeavor of the Elites to control us.

We should teach our children how to make "good" mistakes and learn from them.

[Shin'Ar]

Spirituality and science doesn't have to be separate concepts.

The concept of money and "jobs" truly are the most successful endeavor of the Elites to control us.

We should teach our children how to make "good" mistakes and learn from them.

Your evasion of religion is obvious though Valtor. the thought here is that all three must be combined and nurtured in order for a society to truly thrive. Any of the three left out and society will degenerate.

I agree with what you say, but let's take the thought all the way.

Is it really possible to teach our children how to lay the building blocks to success if we leave out any of the three focuses?

[Patrick]

"Your evasion of religion is obvious though Valtor."

Caught in the act. LOL ! It's simply because I equate religion with dogma and that I do not align with the concept of dogma.

Shin'Ar my friend, in your understanding, what is the value of dogma ?

[Aureus]

Religion is obviously a corrupted business today. However, religion by definition does not necessarily include dogma, fear and control. Rather it is a way to unify people. A sort of system to guide the individual toward God.

If the being is ready to seek and grow there should be wiser beings amongst it. Like spirit guides in physical form. I think this is quite common on other planets with a more harmonious enviroment than our history of chaos and destruction.

[Shin'Ar]

"Your evasion of religion is obvious though Valtor."

Caught in the act. LOL ! It's simply because I equate religion with dogma and that I do not align with the concept of dogma.

Shin'Ar my friend, in your understanding, what is the value of dogma ?

I would suggest IMHO, that just because religion is corruptible and requires great discrimination and investigation, this does not mean that it does not have value or that truth cannot be squeezed from its fruit.

Religion is only dangerous when one is caught up in the traditional aspects with no sense of seeking the truth from within it. Blind faith has no value.

I believe that religion religion is just the vessel of secure deliverance. As Wanderer stated, it becomes a means of preparation for higher understanding at which time the traditions which have been used by the Ancients to carry truth from generation to generation in vessels of secrecy and protection, were spread throughout a variety of sources so that it must be discerned with great understanding and evolved thinking. Then the seeker can gather those truths from their various receptacles and put together the entire picture. In this way such teaching is not lost forever when one singularity is destroyed.

[Patrick]

Well my friends, that's what spirituality means for me. It sounds like you are using the word religion in the same manner I am using the word spirituality.

[Shin'Ar]

Spirituality is the connection of one field of consciousness to another in such a way that the connection is realized as being one that does not require material components to make the engagement.

Religion is a material component to achieving spirituality.

[Patrick]

I see now how you use the word "religion".

The religion I was raised in is about dogma and doing exactly what you are told, in the way you were told to, otherwise you go to Hell for ALL ETERNITY.

I don't see how I could align with this. I wonder how many people use the word "religion" in the way you do ?

So for me, spirituality is like religion without dogma.

[Bring4th_Austin]

It's simply because I equate religion with dogma and that I do not align with the concept of dogma.

How about the dogmatic principles found in the Ra material, or every other source of channeled material?

Many concepts within the Ra material, from densities, to the Higher Self, to reincarnation, and beyond, would be considered dogma. Do you feel the same way about that as you do about religious dogma? If not, why not?

(questions from curiosity)

[Shin'Ar]

I see now how you use the word "religion".

The religion I was raised in is about dogma and doing exactly what you are told, in the way you were told to, otherwise you go to Hell for ALL ETERNITY.

I don't see how I could align with this. I wonder how many people use the word "religion" in the way you do ?

So for me, spirituality is like religion without dogma.

It seems that you are painting all religion with one color Valtor. I prefer to define religion according to the many various teachings that extend throughout history all across the world, many being as different as night and day in their teachings. And yet, there being glimpses of truth hidden within them all.

[Patrick]

It's simply because I equate religion with dogma and that I do not align with the concept of dogma.

How about the dogmatic principles found in the Ra material, or every other source of channeled material?

Many concepts within the Ra material, from densities, to the Higher Self, to reincarnation, and beyond, would be considered dogma. Do you feel the same way about that as you do about religious dogma? If not, why not?

(questions from curiosity)

I think I should explain what it means to me. Here is what dogma means to me. It's a belief or a system of beliefs that are ultimate truths and cannot be argued. They are imposed and proclaimed with authority and are to be taken whole and as is. Since I believe that Truth is subjective in veiled 3d, I could not align with what I understand to be dogma.

Using this definition, I don't see dogma in the Ra material. We are free to interpret it in our own way and leave be whatever we do not resonate with.

My friend, what is your understanding of dogma ?

---

I see now how you use the word "religion".

The religion I was raised in is about dogma and doing exactly what you are told, in the way you were told to, otherwise you go to Hell for ALL ETERNITY.

I don't see how I could align with this. I wonder how many people use the word "religion" in the way you do ?

So for me, spirituality is like religion without dogma.

It seems that you are painting all religion with one color Valtor. I prefer to define religion according to the many various teachings that extend throughout history all across the world, many being as different as night and day in their teachings. And yet, there being glimpses of truth hidden within them all.

It's certainly not my intent. I only know one religion. My post was just explaining my personal experience of religion and what the word means to me.

I was also saying that it seems to me that the way you use the word religion is what I mean when I use the word spirituality.

Chances are we are actually in agreement, but semantics and word definitions are getting in the way. As it often does while communicating in veiled 3d.

[JoshC]

I think that the schools in the US are indoctrination centers, or are at very least, for some reason, very primitive and outmoded in their ways of teaching. From there, I'd say adding religion, which probably means Christianity, and probably its more fundamentalist aspects, would only serve to further indoctrinate generations with dualistic, slave mentalities.

Religion could be a subdivision, which could also have a subdivision entitled dogmatic belief and fundamentalism, of a branch taught in school, "spirituality," along with the sciences and arts.

No comment on the last question about his quote!

Though I also think that that's all no matter since the Light is winning and the dark will be no more soon enough. And all is well.

[Shin'Ar]

I think that the schools in the US are indoctrination centers, or are at very least, for some reason, very primitive and outmoded in their ways of teaching. From there, I'd say adding religion, which probably means Christianity, and probably its more fundamentalist aspects, would only serve to further indoctrinate generations with dualistic, slave mentalities.

Religion could be a subdivision, which could also have a subdivision entitled dogmatic belief and fundamentalism, of a branch taught in school, "spirituality," along with the sciences and arts.

No comment on the last question about his quote!

Though I also think that that's all no matter since the Light is winning and the dark will be no more soon enough. And all is well.

It is crucial to understand that religion in this context is not referring to one particular religion, but is referring to the religious right hand path of being gradually led into one's spiritual awareness. The slow revelation of true divinity.

In this regard, religion, as does science and philosophy all point to the higher understandings of human evolution, and each has their role in bringing us to those higher places, via very specific methods.

[Bring4th_Austin]

I think I should explain what it means to me. Here is what dogma means to me. It's a belief or a system of beliefs that are ultimate truths and cannot be argued. They are imposed and proclaimed with authority and are to be taken whole and as is. Since I believe that Truth is subjective in veiled 3d, I could not align with what I understand to be dogma.

Using this definition, I don't see dogma in the Ra material. We are free to interpret it in our own way and leave be whatever we do not resonate with.

My friend, what is your understanding of dogma ?

Ah, I see...I think you possibly have more of an issue with religious fundamentalism, rather than just religion? For instance, many religious people view their religions the same way that you view the Ra material, being "free to interpret it in our own way and leave be whatever we do not resonate with." Of course many followers of the Ra material who discuss spirituality with loyalty to the material use subjective evidence to reinforce their beliefs, but then again, so do many religious people.

I take a dictionary definition of dogma, being "an authoritative principle, belief or statement of opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true regardless of evidence, or without evidence to support it."

For instance, if you are discussing your spiritual beliefs with someone, and you say, "I believe that the point of our current reality is to polarize through Service to Others or Service to Self throughout multiple incarnations, and if we do this right, once a certain date gets here, we will be reborn into a different level of reality and experience something completely new. We can do this better through the guidance of our Higher Selves, a version of our future incarnations. This system I believe in was described by a group of beings that once lived on Venus telepathically communicated this to a woman in the 1980's."

Every part of that description of beliefs is dogmatic...something we consider to be true despite a real lack of verifiable, objective evidence. The philosophical concepts are golden, and even though some of the transient concepts have had evidence come out to support it, the spiritual concepts are rather dogmatic...according to the above definition.

Would you agree?

[Patrick]

I think I should explain what it means to me. Here is what dogma means to me. It's a belief or a system of beliefs that are ultimate truths and cannot be argued. They are imposed and proclaimed with authority and are to be taken whole and as is. Since I believe that Truth is subjective in veiled 3d, I could not align with what I understand to be dogma.

Using this definition, I don't see dogma in the Ra material. We are free to interpret it in our own way and leave be whatever we do not resonate with.

My friend, what is your understanding of dogma ?

Ah, I see...I think you possibly have more of an issue with religious fundamentalism, rather than just religion? For instance, many religious people view their religions the same way that you view the Ra material, being "free to interpret it in our own way and leave be whatever we do not resonate with."

Yeah I think you're right. For me religion is synonymous with religious fundamentalism, otherwise I call it spirituality.

They feel free to interpret the teachings of their religion and this IMHO is perfectly fine. But would their religion agree with them that their teachings can be interpreted ? What about the Credo ? You cannot be a Catholic without accepting the Credo as is.

Religious people who take only what they resonate with within their religion are more spiritual than religious in my usage of these words.

Of course many followers of the Ra material who discuss spirituality with loyalty to the material use subjective evidence to reinforce their beliefs, but then again, so do many religious people.

I take a dictionary definition of dogma, being "an authoritative principle, belief or statement of opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true regardless of evidence, or without evidence to support it."

For instance, if you are discussing your spiritual beliefs with someone, and you say, "I believe that the point of our current reality is to polarize through Service to Others or Service to Self throughout multiple incarnations, and if we do this right, once a certain date gets here, we will be reborn into a different level of reality and experience something completely new. We can do this better through the guidance of our Higher Selves, a version of our future incarnations. This system I believe in was described by a group of beings that once lived on Venus telepathically communicated this to a woman in the 1980's."

Every part of that description of beliefs is dogmatic...something we consider to be true despite a real lack of verifiable, objective evidence. The philosophical concepts are golden, and even though some of the transient concepts have had evidence come out to support it, the spiritual concepts are rather dogmatic...according to the above definition.

Would you agree?

"something we consider to be true despite a real lack of verifiable, objective evidence."

This is what I call spirituality.


"Every part of that description of beliefs is dogmatic"

I don't see that. There is no authority proclaiming the Ra material to be the Ultimate Truth, including Ra themselves who is saying they are humble and distorted themselves and that what they say is meant to be self-interpreted.

[Richard]

Which religion though? Currently, there seems to to far too many adherents of one willing to kill the adherents of another.

Perhaps in another world we'll be able to join Religion, Philosophy and Science into a teaching system that would serve us all...and the Creator.

Its a nice thought. Though hardly realistic as things stand in this crazy ol' world.

Richard

[52midnight]

> Religion is obviously a corrupted business today. However, religion by definition does not necessarily include dogma, fear and control. Rather it is a way to unify people. A sort of system to guide the individual toward God.

>I believe that religion religion is just the vessel of secure deliverance. As Wanderer stated, it becomes a means of preparation for higher understanding

These are complex issues that can only be meaningfully discussed if certain definitions are accepted; otherwise it becomes a semantic riddle. My own view is that Third Density religion is (1) a group activity, and (2) a psychic (rather than a spiritual) phenomenon.

A religion is essentially a set of doctrines encoded as scriptures, rituals and chants or hymns. Its major events are enacted in a group setting in order to strengthen the psychic elements of the congregation that tend to enhance spiritual experience. Certain individuals may eventually achieve such a heightened psychic state that they trigger a "spiritual breakthrough", after which the religion becomes ever less necessary as their spiritual insight deepens.

An entire religion that achieves the same thing (i.e. a "spiritual breakthrough") essentially triggers the change from Third Density to Fourth Density consciousness in the entire congregation.

As a child I was taught the piano from the age of five, and thoroughly hated it by the time I was twelve, refusing to continue. A few years later I discovered the electric guitar, found a quick facility with it due to the musical knowledge gained via piano lessons, and quickly became a fairly fluent musician rather than a "performer on the piano". Some years later I returned to the piano and found a greatly improved ability to make it respond to my musical instincts.

The same thing happens in many areas. A martial arts student will find himself helpless against an average street-fighter until he arrives at the stage where he can throw away rules and thinking, and react naturally and instinctively.

In the same way, a valid religious structure is essential for those early on the spiritual path in order to structure and comprehend their experiences; but it is only when they have achieved a comparable inner (subjective) structure that they are able to throw away this external (objective) crutch and begin the true, untrammeled exploration of spiritual experience.