Did the first Higher-Self have a Higher-Self before it was a Higher-Self?

[Shin'Ar]

Truth is there is only NOW and absolutely ALL is occurring in an infinite present moment. This is the Logos/Thought/Love from what has been termed the "8th density," beyond time and space, prior to (and after) the Creation was manifested, or brought into play. It is the Observer observing the observation which is the Creation and the process of evolution, devolution, involution of Itself, from Itself and back to Itself.

Thus, the paradox is that you ALWAYS exist(ed) in the past and future. Your "higher" (inner) Selfness reaches back/out to your "lower" (outer) Selfness, and your "lower" (outer) Selfness reaches up/in to your "higher" (inner) Selfness. The only difference is that, linearly-speaking, your higher/inner Selfness enjoys a greater degree of awareness, whilst your lower/outer Selfness enjoys a lesser degree; so even unknowingly, at the lower densities of awareness, you are reaching upwards/inwards; progressively become more and more aware of your journey and your seeking. And at the higher/inner densities, you simply look back and offer your service to yourself in the "past" in reaching your "future" Selfness.

Perhaps it should be helpful to understand evolution as: devolution (from 7th to 1st density) and then involution (from 1st to 7th). Yet you always exist in all gradients. This is the exhalation/expansion and inhalation/contraction of the Logos, and the rhythms of the Creation.

They key idea to understand is that this "you" I am referring to is not just your current 3rd density personality construct of this particular incarnation. The problem, if I may use this misnomer, arises from the fact that even seekers, adepts, wanderers identify/attach themselves too tightly to their earthly "personas," mistaking it for their fuller, shall we say, Selfness.

If you are correct in your declaration and conclusion and it is truth, than why would one already having reached higher being see it fitting to assist its lower self to reach that which has already been acquired? If already achieved what is the purpose of such assistance?

If existence has no end and no beginning, and all is present tense, than the choice which you make in this very moment, is of no future consequence, so what would be the necessity for advice or guidance from a Higher self, when all is already done, despite any choice you might now make?

If Infinity has no beginning and no end, then why do you suggest that creation is already completed? Would that not be an end?

If creation is fully completed in this present moment, and the Creator experiences only that which is already fulfilled, then not only is there no need for further guidance from higher self, but higher self has nothing to look forward to.

If creation is at an end, then infinity has an end.

No my friends!

The All is not infinite conclusion without tense; it is Infinite Mystery awaiting further vibration.

Above you define creation as the Breath of the Logos. Has your logos stopped breathing? If not, then each new breath is yet to become new vibration.

Has it ceased its thought process? If not, ...........

[anagogy]

As far as the dispute whether the past, present, and future simultaneously exist is concerned, I still think Ra very unambiguously states right here that they do, in fact, simultaneously exist:



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70.12 Questioner: Then what we are looking at is a long path of experience through the densities up to mid-sixth density which are a function totally of free will and result in the awareness of the higher self in mid-sixth density, but since time is illusory and there is a, shall I say, unification of time and space or an eradication of what we think of as time, then, all of this experience that results in the higher self, the cause of evolvement through the densities, is existing while the evolvement takes place, since it’s all simultaneous. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. We refrain from speaking of correctness due to our understanding of the immense difficulty of absorbing the concepts of metaphysical existence. In time/space, which is precisely as much of your self as is space/time, all times are simultaneous just as, in your geography, your cities and villages are all functioning, bustling, and alive with entities going about their business at once. So it is in time/space with the self.

****Note: If in time/space, all times are simultaneous, it makes perfect sense that there would be communication from the future to the past, and vice versa. In the spirit world, there is no past or future. There is just the PRESENT, which encompasses what we, in 3rd density space/time identify as the past, present, and future.****
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And I also found this excerpt very informative:



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37.6 Questioner: In that case, we’ll go ahead with the questions we have here continuing the last session. You said that each third-density entity has an higher self in the sixth density which is moving to the mind/body/spirit complex of the entity as needed. Does this higher self also evolve in growth through the densities beginning with the first density, and does each higher self have a corresponding higher self advanced in densities beyond it?

Ra: I am Ra. To simplify this concept is our intent. The higher self is a manifestation given to the late sixth-density mind/body/spirit complex as a gift from its future selfness. The mid-seventh density’s last action *before* turning towards the allness of the Creator and gaining spiritual mass is to give this resource to the sixth-density self, moving as you measure time in the stream of time.
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****Note: Ra seems to be saying here that before the 7th density being completes its journey through the densities it gives its resources of evolution to the late sixth density self -- a infinitely complex thought-form shell containing its living bank of memory and experiences. The reason I used asterisks on "before" is to point out that this indicates a movement. That is to say, the Higher Self is not stuck in mid sixth density, nor is any portion of your consciousness, it is a moving continuum of consciousness. In other-words, all parts of you are evolving. It is not just some "projection" that is based on your third density experiences to date, it is a compilation of its travels through the densities.

Earlier in this thread, there was some discussion as to what Ra meant when they said in session 70.11 "The seeming contradictions of determinism and free will melt when it is accepted that there is such a thing as true simultaneity. The higher self is the end result of all the development experienced by the mind/body/spirit complex to that point. ". I have always taken Ra to mean "to that point in sixth density". And that makes perfect sense, given all other quotes offered.

Also, I would just like to point out there would be absolutely NO reason for Ra to even bring up "the seeming contradictions of free will and determinism" if they were not, in fact, referring to time travel or communication from the future to the past. Seriously, think about this carefully.****



****What other reason would there be?**** :idea:


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Ra: This self, the mind/body/spirit complex of late sixth density, has then the honor/duty of using both the experiences of its total living bank or memory of experienced thoughts and actions, and using the resource of the mind/body/spirit complex totality left behind as a type of infinitely complex thought-form.

In this way you may see your self, your higher self or Oversoul, and your mind/body/spirit complex totality as three points in a circle. The only distinction is that of your time/space continuum. All are the same being.
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[Shin'Ar]

Anagogy, I can still suggest that it is possible that Ra is using metaphor ad you are doing the same thing that Bible interpreted have done by trying to take it literally.

I would like to hear how you or anyone following this thread, would answer the questions I have posted above, and now below for reference sake?

If you are correct in your declaration and conclusion and it is truth, than why would one already having reached higher being see it fitting to assist its lower self to reach that which has already been acquired? If already achieved what is the purpose of such assistance?

If existence has no end and no beginning, and all is present tense, than the choice which you make in this very moment, is of no future consequence, so what would be the necessity for advice or guidance from a Higher self, when all is already done, despite any choice you might now make?

If Infinity has no beginning and no end, then why do you suggest that creation is already completed? Would that not be an end?

If creation is fully completed in this present moment, and the Creator experiences only that which is already fulfilled, then not only is there no need for further guidance from higher self, but higher self has nothing to look forward to.

[Siren]

If you are correct in your declaration and conclusion and it is truth, than why would one already having reached higher being see it fitting to assist its lower self to reach that which has already been acquired? If already achieved what is the purpose of such assistance?

Why would the Creator create the Creation?

If existence has no end and no beginning, and all is present tense, than the choice which you make in this very moment, is of no future consequence, so what would be the necessity for advice or guidance from a Higher self, when all is already done, despite any choice you might now make?

Experience.

If Infinity has no beginning and no end, then why do you suggest that creation is already completed? Would that not be an end?

Because from the viewpoint of the Logos, the Creations are infinite and simultaneously beginning/ending or ending/beginning. The Logos create so that It may experience Itself through "us" (or the various foci of consciousness dancing through the Creation) in temporal and spatial configuration. Growth, experience, evolution, it all implies change, movement, vibration, kinetic, and by defect: time and space. There can be no movement in spacelesness; there can be no change in timelessness. Therefore time and space are needed to yield an experience; hence: the Creation.

There can be no experience in an INFINITY undistorted, unconditioned, undifferentiated, boundless, formless, unborn and undying. Therefore INTELLIGENT INFINITY focuses into a particular direction for the design of a particular experience—this is the Logos/Thought/Love or Intelligent Energy—which is responsible for the ideation and architecture of a particular set of illusions—the Creation—through which It may experience Itself.

If creation is fully completed in this present moment, and the Creator experiences only that which is already fulfilled, then not only is there no need for further guidance from higher self, but higher self has nothing to look forward to.

The "higher self" (at 6D) looks forward to entering the violet-ray vibratory spectrum (7D) of the Creation in order to further its experience which will lead it to merging back with the Creator/Logos.

The Creator is experiencing Itself through the Creation. The Creation will conclude, just as it has begun; and the Creator will know Itself. And this knowing shall beget a new Creation—ad infinitum.

If creation is at an end, then infinity has an end.

There is a slight pragmatic difference between Infinity and the Creation. Infinity is, as it implies, INFINITE; the Creation on the other hand, is cyclical in nature (i.e. it moves, rotates, vibrates, and it originates/terminates at the same point). In that sense, the Creation is temporal. However, the act of Creation is infinite.

Above you define creation as the Breath of the Logos.

A slight (but important) correction: the Breath of Life is Intelligent Energy (or the Logos) pulsating, vibrating, animating all the light/matter of the Creation. The Breath is not the Creation per se, but the energy/life/consciousness that runs through the Creation.

Has your logos stopped breathing?

Have YOU stopped breathing?

If not, then each new breath is yet to become new vibration.

The Breath is ongoing. This is perceived as the expansion and contraction of the Universe.

[anagogy]

Anagogy, I can still suggest that it is possible that Ra is using metaphor ad you are doing the same thing that Bible interpreted have done by trying to take it literally.

Yes, you can suggest that. Just as I can suggest it is not metaphor, and that you are twisting Ra's words to make it fit your preconceived notions of how the universe works. And I say that without the slightest shred of hostility, Shin'Ar. Honestly, I'm only interested in truth here. If you convinced me you were right, I would hop on your band wagon in a second. I just haven't been convinced as of yet.

I would also like to point out that the social memory complex of Ra is very particular with their language. They have said before that, "Due to our orientation with regard to data, even the most specifically answered question would be worded by our group in such a way as to maximize the accuracy of the nuances of the answer. This, however, mitigates against what your critic desires in the way of simple, lucid prose."

And to be honest, whenever Ra uses metaphor they are usually quick to point out that is just a metaphor, such as in 50.7 with the poker game metaphor.

I would like to hear how you or anyone following this thread, would answer the questions I have posted above, and now below for reference sake?

If you are correct in your declaration and conclusion and it is truth, than why would one already having reached higher being see it fitting to assist its lower self to reach that which has already been acquired? If already achieved what is the purpose of such assistance?

One of the problems is you are looking at the past as something that is over and done with. This is emphatically not so. Everything is simultaneous. It is totally understandable that this would not make sense looking at it from a linear standpoint. From a linear standpoint, once you pass a temporal benchmark, there is no reason to go back to it. I would submit to you that it is not so cut and dry. Everything is happening NOW.

The sixth density future self had assistance from its future self when it was in lower densities. What better teacher to guide you than your own self? Who would know you better? Who would be more likely to have your best interests at heart when giving you guidance?

You ask why the higher self would help its past self to achieve what it has already acquired. I can understand your confusion. When you come to understand that the sixth density being is operating almost completely out of time, it becomes less confusing. You can even take time almost completely out of the equation, for simplicity's sake. You could simply look at it as a 3rd density being asking for help, and a sixth density being offering its wisdom. The confusion only enters into the situation when you forget that nothing is over and done with. It's just that, in this particular circumstance of interaction with the "higher self", the sixth density being you are communicating with just happens to be your future self.

If existence has no end and no beginning, and all is present tense, than the choice which you make in this very moment, is of no future consequence, so what would be the necessity for advice or guidance from a Higher self, when all is already done, despite any choice you might now make?

While I can appreciate the question, Shin'Ar, I have to tell you, it is misconceived. The reason why it is misconceived is it implies that your decisions right now don't matter. This is not so. They matter very much. They matter to you, and to those you interact with. Ra has described the higher self principle as a map in which the destination is known. You will, eventually, consciously rejoin the One. That is rest assured. Does the fact that you will inevitably cross the finish line mean the journey is pointless? Of course not.

It was never about the destination, it was always about the journey. We aren't trying to "get" anywhere, or "learn" something. It's all about the experience. ALL experiences are enfolded in the One. All of it already exists. The pathways of experience are just roads that consciousness may travel down. Just because a sixth density being has already traveled down the road you are about to, does NOT invalidate the beauty and majesty and value of the experience for YOU. It's a moving continuum of consciousness. All experience-roads are being explored by the creator.

Also, remember that having a future self that exists in sixth density does *not* negate free will. Please keep this in mind. Your choices are still your choices, and they do matter. It is a psychological trap to assume otherwise just because you have a future self that has been through it all already. It is just disturbing to the human intellect. Trust me, I know. Time is incredibly difficult to wrap one's intellect around.

If Infinity has no beginning and no end, then why do you suggest that creation is already completed? Would that not be an end?

There is a beginning and end to this particular octave. Anything that has a beginning, inevitably has an ending as well. Infinity had no beginning, and so it can have no end. The ending of our octave is not determined by time, but is an experiential cycle. It ends for you, when you complete 7th density. That's when you return to the still point, where a new octave is birthed from.

If creation is fully completed in this present moment, and the Creator experiences only that which is already fulfilled, then not only is there no need for further guidance from higher self, but higher self has nothing to look forward to.

The higher self, being of a certain progression within sixth density, has 7th density to look forward to, which it has not yet experienced, despite it having its own higher self, the mind/body/spirit complex totality, which has already experienced 7th density.

If you have any questions about what I've written here, I'm happy to answer them.

[Shin'Ar]

My responses in BOLD.

Anagogy, I can still suggest that it is possible that Ra is using metaphor ad you are doing the same thing that Bible interpreted have done by trying to take it literally.

Yes, you can suggest that. Just as I can suggest it is not metaphor, and that you are twisting Ra's words to make it fit your preconceived notions of how the universe works. And I say that without the slightest shred of hostility, Shin'Ar. Honestly, I'm only interested in truth here. If you convinced me you were right, I would hop on your band wagon in a second. I just haven't been convinced as of yet.

No offense is taken when words are applied as eloquently and responsibly as you are using them my friend.


I would also like to point out that the social memory complex of Ra is very particular with their language. They have said before that, "Due to our orientation with regard to data, even the most specifically answered question would be 'worded by our group in such a way as to maximize the accuracy of the nuances of the answer'. This, however, mitigates against what your critic desires in the way of simple, lucid prose."

And to be honest, whenever Ra uses metaphor they are usually quick to point out that is just a metaphor, such as in 50.7 with the poker game metaphor.

I would like to hear how you or anyone following this thread, would answer the questions I have posted above, and now below for reference sake?

If you are correct in your declaration and conclusion and it is truth, than why would one already having reached higher being see it fitting to assist its lower self to reach that which has already been acquired? If already achieved what is the purpose of such assistance?

One of the problems is you are looking at the past as something that is over and done with. This is emphatically not so. Everything is simultaneous. It is totally understandable that this would not make sense looking at it from a linear standpoint. From a linear standpoint, once you pass a temporal benchmark, there is no reason to go back to it. I would submit to you that it is not so cut and dry. Everything is happening NOW.

If your premise is correct than the past has not really happened and memory is not truth.

The sixth density future self had assistance from its future self when it was in lower densities. What better teacher to guide you than your own self? Who would know you better? Who would be more likely to have your best interests at heart when giving you guidance?

You ask why the higher self would help its past self to achieve what it has already acquired. I can understand your confusion. When you come to understand that the sixth density being is operating almost completely out of time, it becomes less confusing. You can even take time almost completely out of the equation, for simplicity's sake. You could simply look at it as a 3rd density being asking for help, and a sixth density being offering its wisdom. The confusion only enters into the situation when you forget that nothing is over and done with. It's just that, in this particular circumstance of interaction with the "higher self", the sixth density being you are communicating with just happens to be your future self.

But what you are automatically implying in considering that you have a higher self in a simultaneously existing reality is that all of creation is already completed. What you are saying is that because the future and past and present all exist in the NOW, then all that exists is existing NOW, meaning that all that exists is done and concluded. Your speculation removes the possible future, and suggests that all that can be done has been done. And the only way that your speculation of simultaneity to work is if you take the unknown future of a continuing creation out of the dynamic. But in drawing that line, in creating that scenario, your circle is no longer infinite. Your ouroboros is not consuming its tail, it has choked on its tail and is now dead.

If existence has no end and no beginning, and all is present tense, than the choice which you make in this very moment, is of no future consequence, so what would be the necessity for advice or guidance from a Higher self, when all is already done, despite any choice you might now make?

While I can appreciate the question, Shin'Ar, I have to tell you, it is misconceived. The reason why it is misconceived is it implies that your decisions right now don't matter. This is not so. They matter very much. They matter to you, and to those you interact with. Ra has described the higher self principle as a map in which the destination is known. You will, eventually, consciously rejoin the One. That is rest assured. Does the fact that you will inevitably cross the finish line mean the journey is pointless? Of course not.

It was never about the destination, it was always about the journey. We aren't trying to "get" anywhere, or "learn" something. It's all about the experience. ALL experiences are enfolded in the One. All of it already exists. The pathways of experience are just roads that consciousness may travel down. Just because a sixth density being has already traveled down the road you are about to, does NOT invalidate the beauty and majesty and value of the experience for YOU. It's a moving continuum of consciousness. All experience-roads are being explored by the creator.

What you have done here is avoid answering the actual question by dropping the IF aspect of my question and responded as though I actually suggested that life has no purpose or that the journey does not matter, which is not what I have said here at all. I clearly stated that IF your speculation is accurate THEN the journey would have no meaning because all is already complete and all chopices have already been made. However I do NOT believe that to be accurate or true and so the IF is the biggest part of that question which you really did not answer. Would you reconsider the question as it was actually asked?

Also, remember that having a future self that exists in sixth density does *not* negate free will. Please keep this in mind. Your choices are still your choices, and they do matter. It is a psychological trap to assume otherwise just because you have a future self that has been through it all already. It is just disturbing to the human intellect. Trust me, I know. Time is incredibly difficult to wrap one's intellect around.

If Infinity has no beginning and no end, then why do you suggest that creation is already completed? Would that not be an end?

There is a beginning and end to this particular octave. Anything that has a beginning, inevitably has an ending as well. Infinity had no beginning, and so it can have no end. The ending of our octave is not determined by time, but is an experiential cycle. It ends for you, when you complete 7th density. That's when you return to the still point, where a new octave is birthed from.

If creation is fully completed in this present moment, and the Creator experiences only that which is already fulfilled, then not only is there no need for further guidance from higher self, but higher self has nothing to look forward to.

The higher self, being of a certain progression within sixth density, has 7th density to look forward to, which it has not yet experienced, despite it having its own higher self, the mind/body/spirit complex totality, which has already experienced 7th density.

This is what I have been trying to point out. What you are doing here by trying to make your speculation work is drawing a line where higher self ends. When you speak of higher self you are speaking of it as though it is an entity of some identity from the future which is the same entity/identity that you are now. And you are suggesting that it continues to evolve into higher density having no higher self because it has not reached that point yet. This totally contradicts what you are saying about your present state of being. As well as contradicting what you have said about time being simultaneous and everything being NOW.

Yet when you apply your thinking to that future 6th or 7th density identity of your self, all of a sudden time seems to be of a 'future' dynamic in that it has no higher self in this octave and seeks to reach that state of being.

You have called creation infinite, and yet clearly designated timelines within it including ends and beginnings. The only difference between our definitions of time is that you try to clear up the confusion of your speculation by designating octaves.

If you were to consider The All truly as timeless and simultaneous there would be no need for designating time-points or cyclical turning points.



If you have any questions about what I've written here, I'm happy to answer them.

Might I suggest a few things for thought here.

The mind/body/spirit complex which you refer to is only totality when you consider totality as One. The problem which you create in your speculation is that you use the totality of individual consciousness to be your higher self identity, excluding the fact that if all is one then that total mind/body/spirit complex must include the All. In other words we cannot apply totality when we want to use it to define our future self, and disregard the fact that true totality would automatically imply that the Highest Self of All must be included in that totality.

So if we are to speak of a higher self based upon a total complex system of mind/spirit/body, than this higher self of which we speak must then be the One Consciousness of the All.

This I would agree with completely. This would make complete sense of all that Ra has said. And this would solve the present dilemmas and paradoxes of your speculations and theories.

Nextly, we cannot have our cake and eat it too which what your Ouroboros is trying to do. If creation is Infinite, than by the defintion of Infinity creation is not finished. If it is not finished and the Mystery continues, then so does possibility and the free will of choice. And so continues the evolving experiences of each fragmented consciousness, and the All.

All of these paradoxes are created when you try to make your speculations of simultaneity work, and when you try to suggest that infinity is over NOW.

If you consider what I am proposing, these paradoxes do not exist, creation continues to develop, the One continues to evolve, choice continues to be the ingredient which enables catalyst for change, and the future is Mystery.

There are simply too many contradictions and paradoxes within your proposal to rationally consider as possible truth.

[anagogy]

If your premise is correct than the past has not really happened and memory is not truth.

Rather than say "happened", which is already setting up illusory boundaries, I would describe all time periods as simply "existing". It's like, if you were to imagine a giant circle, and then further pictured yourself standing in the middle of that circle, this would be an analogy of how things are from the perspective of time/space or the non-physical realm.



Incarnation is a bit like hopping onto a part of that circle. You go around the circle a bit, and then step off into the middle again. Rinse and repeat. That's reincarnation in a nutshell. Now, from the center, you have access to all time frames. They are all simply existing. You could jump into any section if you really wanted to. Well, more or less.

Now, this analogy is missing certain components -- namely, that there are vibrational levels within the center area of "no time". These are the vibrational thresholds, densities, or if you prefer "planes" as they exist in time/space, or in other-words, the nonphysical. As you know, there are also space/time densities which are more or less physical or tangible in some way. One's ability to perceive, and/or inhabit these densities (whether they be in space/time or time/space) is restricted to one's vibrational level. These are the fabled "stairs of light".

It is not completely accurate for me to refer to the center area as "no time", as there is still a kind of change that goes on there, and really, what is time but simply a measure of this thing we call "change"? Think about it, how would you measure "time" if there were *NO* change? You cannot. Time is a factor of change. It has also been described (mostly by physicists) as a kind of "space" as well. That's another way of thinking about it. However, space is also just change. They both have their conceptual limitations and freedoms.

There are many forms of change or time. Now, in this discussion about time, I want you to consider, for a moment, that ALL states of change are contained within the "One" or "All That Is" or "Source". Whatever you prefer to call it. It's a GIANT repository of ALL possibilities. ALL realities. They ALL exist NOW. All so called "time periods" are just states of change that exist within the creator. Our egos are simply our identification with but a portion of that great repository of infinite "change". Your future self is a more expanded identification of that repository, yet still includes those aspects you currently identify as your "self".

You see, the higher self is just another more expanded self that has not yet expanded into All That Is.

But what you are automatically implying in considering that you have a higher self in a simultaneously existing reality is that all of creation is already completed. What you are saying is that because the future and past and present all exist in the NOW, then all that exists is existing NOW, meaning that all that exists is done and concluded. Your speculation removes the possible future, and suggests that all that can be done has been done. And the only way that your speculation of simultaneity to work is if you take the unknown future of a continuing creation out of the dynamic. But in drawing that line, in creating that scenario, your circle is no longer infinite. Your ouroboros is not consuming its tail, it has choked on its tail and is now dead.

Yes, your future is already completed by your future self. But not for you, the present self. The future is unknown to you. And it is also unknown to your Higher Self as Ra has stated. The higher self is a manifestation given to the late sixth density being (which, remember, is just a "state of change" or level of consciousness which has always existed). It uses this form of consciousness (which is mid-sixth density as far as consciousness level is concerned) to guide the past or less developed versions of its consciousness in less evolved "states of change" or past time periods as third density incarnates would call it. That is, if they request such guidance. They don't always do that, of course. Those on the negative path are not so inclined to ask for sixth density positive guidance.

Now, it is true that there may be portions of yourself that do, in fact, know your so called "future", however, they are forbidden to reveal it to you due to the law of confusion or law of free will.

The reason why the ouroboros has not choked and died is because there is NO end to this thing we call "change" or "time". It can go on infinitely if so inclined, even though it is essentially an illusion. Now, something that is interesting is that ALL change is contained within the changeless. Intelligent Infinity is changeless. All change is an illusory excursion into separation. Only in separation can change, or time, appear to exist.

What you have done here is avoid answering the actual question by dropping the IF aspect of my question and responded as though I actually suggested that life has no purpose or that the journey does not matter, which is not what I have said here at all. I clearly stated that IF your speculation is accurate THEN the journey would have no meaning because all is already complete and all chopices have already been made. However I do NOT believe that to be accurate or true and so the IF is the biggest part of that question which you really did not answer. Would you reconsider the question as it was actually asked?

I will attempt to respond to the question in another way. Your original question was:

"If existence has no end and no beginning, and all is present tense, than the choice which you make in this very moment, is of no future consequence, so what would be the necessity for advice or guidance from a Higher self, when all is already done, despite any choice you might now make?"

The necessity for guidance from the Higher Self is to assist the evolving soul through the experiences it seeks to experience. The flaw in your reasoning is assuming that your choices have no future consequences. I have never said this. There are consequences to everything you do. There is cause and effect. Now, there are certain causes and effects which will ALWAYS overpower you, because they come from a higher plane of consciousness than you are currently vibrating at, but you really do have free will, and you really can write most of your future as you see fit. You are the creator, after-all.

The amount of free will you have, is directly proportional to how conscious you are. You cannot exercise a choice you are not aware of. The limiting factor is always the level of consciousness. The more expanded your consciousness becomes, the more power you have to embrace anything you might embrace as a conscious experience. Everything exists within the creator. Everything is One. What "you" identify yourself as will eventually become everything in existence and potential existence. Your freedom is assured. You needn't be concerned with this "dream character". That is just an identity. You are ALL identities.

Your "self" has a "future". Now, Yourself, as the Creator, has no past OR future. It is totally unconditioned. It is totally changeless. It is totally time-less. This is the still point. This is ultimate freedom. This is the ultimate springboard and stepping off point to anything one could imagine. This is enlightenment. This is awake. This is the changeless container for all states of change.

This is what I have been trying to point out. What you are doing here by trying to make your speculation work is drawing a line where higher self ends. When you speak of higher self you are speaking of it as though it is an entity of some identity from the future which is the same entity/identity that you are now. And you are suggesting that it continues to evolve into higher density having no higher self because it has not reached that point yet. This totally contradicts what you are saying about your present state of being. As well as contradicting what you have said about time being simultaneous and everything being NOW.

I'm not aware of any contradictions. I'm only aware of some possible misinterpretations of what I have said. What I have been saying (as far as I am aware) and have continued to say is that the Higher Self is what you are now, plus a bunch of future experiences on top of that. It is a more expanded identity than you, yet contains your identity within it, in the same way that the creator houses ALL identities within it. It is the future state of change or beingness that your free-will decisions will eventually take you to. If you want to get all technical, you have a whole host of "higher selves". The "higher self" to the 6th density "higher self" is the 7th density mind/body/spirit complex totality.

Yet when you apply your thinking to that future 6th or 7th density identity of your self, all of a sudden time seems to be of a 'future' dynamic in that it has no higher self in this octave and seeks to reach that state of being.

I'm not aware of having said anything of the sort. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are asking here.

You have called creation infinite, and yet clearly designated timelines within it including ends and beginnings. The only difference between our definitions of time is that you try to clear up the confusion of your speculation by designating octaves.

An octave, as defined by Ra, is simply the 7 densities. Ra compares it to a musical octave whereupon the 8th note would begin a new set of 7.

The densities all contain states of change. Change, by its very nature, is impermanent. It has beginnings and endings. Or "cycles", or "patterns". However you want to look at it. There will always be endings to some stories and the beginning of new ones. Consciousness has no beginning and no ending. It is the platform that everything extends from. Therefore, it is infinite. It is the changeless platform upon which all change takes place in.

If you were to consider The All truly as timeless and simultaneous there would be no need for designating time-points or cyclical turning points.

I never had a "need" so much as a desire to communicate that reality looks different depending on what level of change you are observing creation from. If you are observing creation from the changeless, there is only infinite and undistorted unity. However, we are not looking at the world from that vantage point consciously yet. That is really the heart of this message.

Really it is all illusion. However, as long as one is still asleep, one still has to abide in the dream environment. I'm simply attempting to, as accurately as possible, describe the nature of this "dream environment" to those who are curious to know it. We are the dreamer, after all, so we might as well try to understand it.

Might I suggest a few things for thought here.

The mind/body/spirit complex which you refer to is only totality when you consider totality as One. The problem which you create in your speculation is that you use the totality of individual consciousness to be your higher self identity, excluding the fact that if all is one then that total mind/body/spirit complex must include the All. In other words we cannot apply totality when we want to use it to define our future self, and disregard the fact that true totality would automatically imply that the Highest Self of All must be included in that totality.

My interpretation of what Ra refers to as the "mind/body/spirit complex totality" is that it is furthest boundary of individuated identity. The next step is dispersion into All That Is, which is "identity-less" so to speak. In the Law of One material, Ra never refers to the mind/body/spirit complex totality as All That Is. Rather Ra says:

36.1 Questioner: In previous communications you have spoken of the mind/body/spirit complex totality. Would you please give us a definition of the mind/body/spirit complex totality?

Ra: I am Ra. There is a dimension in which time does not have sway. In this dimension, the mind/body/spirit in its eternal dance of the present may be seen in totality, and before the mind/body/spirit complex which then becomes a part of the social memory complex is willingly absorbed into the allness of the One Creator, the entity knows itself in its totality.

This mind/body/spirit complex totality functions as, shall we say, a resource for what you perhaps would call the higher self. The higher self, in turn, is a resource for examining the distillations of third-density experience and programming further experience. This is also true of densities four, five, and six with the mind/body/spirit complex totality coming into consciousness in the course of seventh density.

So if we are to speak of a higher self based upon a total complex system of mind/spirit/body, than this higher self of which we speak must then be the One Consciousness of the All.

This I would agree with completely. This would make complete sense of all that Ra has said. And this would solve the present dilemmas and paradoxes of your speculations and theories.

Except for the fact that the Ra quote I just shared completely blew that idea to bits.

Nextly, we cannot have our cake and eat it too which what your Ouroboros is trying to do. If creation is Infinite, than by the defintion of Infinity creation is not finished. If it is not finished and the Mystery continues, then so does possibility and the free will of choice. And so continues the evolving experiences of each fragmented consciousness, and the All.

See, you're still thinking I've said there is no free will despite me emphatically stating otherwise. Also, creation cannot finish because it actually never started. To create implies something doesn't exist, and then it is created and then it does exist. Even Ra has pointed this out to be a fallacy.

Behold:

82.10 Questioner: Why does this partaking in the original thought have a gradient radially outward? That’s the way I understand your statement.

Ra: I am Ra. This is the plan of the One Infinite Creator. The One Original Thought is the harvest of all previous, if you would use this term, experience of the Creator by the Creator. As It decides to know Itself It generates Itself into that plenum, full of the glory and the power of the One Infinite Creator which is manifested to your perceptions as space or outer space. Each generation of this knowing begets a knowing which has the capacity, through free will, to choose methods of knowing Itself. Therefore, gradually, step by step, the Creator becomes that which may know Itself, and the portions of the Creator partake less purely in the power of the original word or thought. This is for the purpose of refinement of the one original thought. The Creator does not properly create as much as It experiences Itself.

All of these paradoxes are created when you try to make your speculations of simultaneity work, and when you try to suggest that infinity is over NOW.

Infinity simply *IS*. It's like taking two mirrors and facing them towards each other. An infinite stream of reflections. Just because you are currently looking at the first three reflections doesn't mean the next two thousand don't exist.

Infinity and simultaneous time are not at odds with each other. Only your understanding of them is.

If you consider what I am proposing, these paradoxes do not exist, creation continues to develop, the One continues to evolve, choice continues to be the ingredient which enables catalyst for change, and the future is Mystery.

With all I have stated, this is all still true. There are no paradoxes, only misunderstandings. The future is still a mystery to the journeyman, the power of choice is still real, and evolution still occurs.

There are simply too many contradictions and paradoxes within your proposal to rationally consider as possible truth.

I'm still not aware of any paradoxes or contradictions. You do seem to have a powerful ability to ignore any quotes in the Ra material that don't support your notions, though.

[Siren]

So if we are to speak of a higher self based upon a total complex system of mind/spirit/body, than this higher self of which we speak must then be the One Consciousness of the All.

This higher self we speak of is of an entity of mid-late 6 density, not the One Consciousness of the All properly speaking.

Let me attempt to clarify this a bit further. There is Infinity. We may call that All there Is, in a state of undifferentiated, unfocused, boundless infinite potential. It is a mystery. You may draw an analogy to the the spirit complex.

It then focuses upon itself, thus "birthing" a Logos (or Love/Thought), the first movement, the first torsion, the first vibration, the Breath of Life (also referred to as intelligent energy). You may draw an analogy to the the mind complex.

The Logos then ideates, designs and constructs a system of illusory patterns for an experience of knowing itself. This is the Creation. You may draw an analogy to the the body complex.

Within the Creation lies the experience, the journey of self-knowing and re-discovery (this is what is known as the process of "evolution"). Remember, the body is a vehicle, a medium for experience. You may then see the 7 densities within this Creation as the 7 energy nexi (chakras) of the Creator/Logos. In other words, entities in 6th density are the Creator's indigo-ray chakra.

Thus, micro-cosmically speaking, you are an individuated sub-foci of consciousness (sub-Logos, co-Creator) within the Creation of the One Creator. And your own energy nexi are then micro-cosmic reflections of the seven vibratory spectra (densities) of the body (Creation) of this One Creator/Logos/Thought/Love/Focus.

In other words, you/we, in this experience, are the Creator's chakra system. In totality, we are the One Creator.

This is what being a mind/body/spirit complex implies.

There are simply too many contradictions and paradoxes within your proposal to rationally consider as possible truth.

Everything is a paradox. Embrace this knowledge and you shall be freed from all contradictions.

[Shin'Ar]

So if we are to speak of a higher self based upon a total complex system of mind/spirit/body, than this higher self of which we speak must then be the One Consciousness of the All.

This higher self we speak of is of an entity of mid-late 6 density, not the One Consciousness of the All properly speaking.

Let me attempt to clarify this a bit further. There is Infinity. We may call that All there Is, in a state of undifferentiated, unfocused, boundless infinite potential. It is a mystery. You may see this as the "Spirit" (with capital S).

It then focuses upon itself, thus "birthing" a Logos (or Love/Thought), the first movement, the first torsion, the first vibration, the Breath of Life (also referred to as intelligent energy). You may see this as the "Mind" (with capital M).

The Logos then ideates, designs and constructs a system of illusory patterns for an experience of knowing itself. This is the Creation. You may see this as the "Body" (with capital B).

Within the Creation lies the experience, the journey of self-knowing and re-discovery (this is what is known as the process of "evolution"). Remember, the body is a vehicle, a medium for experience. You may then see the 7 densities within this Creation as the 7 energy nexi (chakras) of the Creator/Logos. In other words, entities in 6th density are the Creator's indigo-ray chakra.

Thus, micro-cosmically speaking, you are an individuated sub-foci of consciousness (sub-Logos, co-Creator) within the Creation of the One Creator. And your own energy nexi are then micro-cosmic reflections of the seven vibratory spectra (densities) of the body (Creation) of this One Creator/Logos/Thought/Love/Focus.

In other words, you/we, in this experience, are the Creator's chakra system. In totality, we are the One Creator. And the Creator is that Great Mystery of Infinity itself. The three are the One, and the One is the All.

This is what being a mind/body/spirit complex implies.

There are simply too many contradictions and paradoxes within your proposal to rationally consider as possible truth.

Everything is a paradox. Embrace this knowledge and you shall be freed from all contradictions.

Siren,

I want to acknowledge your efforts so that they do not go in vain. I have read your thoughts and commented on them, and we have shared that Sacred Space. Now the transmutation of information into wisdom is at the mercy of each field's capacity.

What you try to express here is the comprehension of Infinite Mystery, and in so doing you and others here struggle to define what you sense as your higher self and your process of being. You are both Ba and Ka, and the two will not know each other except as being.

I return now to the Flame. So that your thoughts, and the thoughts of a few more here in this place of seekers, I have made my final statement and revelation in the thread you posted as Cycles of Infinity. This is made simply in respect of your efforts so that you do not feel ignored by my field or cut off from that which you have been seeking.

You shall be able to communicate with the one which my field continues to use in this incarnation for that form's own learning now. I give all my leave and my love.

Namaste