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+---- Thread: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system (/showthread.php?tid=18926)
[split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - Patrick - 02-13-2021
(02-13-2021, 12:40 AM)Spaced Wrote: ...
The idea of "forced sharing" sound to me like a case of a society infringing on the individual wills of it's members, yet that is what it took to get them to 4D positive
"forced sharing" sounds to me like socialism was enforced for the greater good.
RE: Free Will Infringement, what is it? - Patrick - 02-13-2021
(02-13-2021, 06:32 AM)confusedseeker Wrote:(02-13-2021, 03:26 AM)flofrog Wrote: The chatter about free will may be less valuable but Sacred Fool it also brought us your post which is in fact pretty cool : indeed some degree of a general consensus for a mutual constructive collaboration is really what is needed now... I have a feeling that we all, inward, desperately want this, so it will happen.
Hmm. Imo we are now divided than ever.
I guess it depends where you live. Here in Canada the push for a UBI is reaching our leaders more and more.
In the USA, this might seem to be the case, but it's just lagging behind a bit, the USA will get there. All that is happening over there could very well open the door to a UBI or other forms of socialism in the USA.
RE: Free Will Infringement, what is it? - Diana - 02-13-2021
(02-13-2021, 03:26 AM)flofrog Wrote: The chatter about free will may be less valuable but Sacred Fool it also brought us your post which is in fact pretty cool : indeed some degree of a general consensus for a mutual constructive collaboration is really what is needed now... I have a feeling that we all, inward, desperately want this, so it will happen.
I agree with this, and it just seems like a natural desire for anyone leaning toward STO.
It seems to me from my limited perspective that wanting "mutual constructive collaboration" is at this point blocked from a few angles.
1. A lot of people in richer countries are still locked in a "competition" mindset. This makes "sharing" a difficult reality to land on.
2. There is STS-like control of governments/huge corporations/ authorities. (I really don't mean to stir up conspiracies, but I see no efficacy in ignoring what goes on in the world, though it does not have to be focused on.) So, cooperating with that part of society, and that part of society truly caring about the masses, seems challenging.
3. People who are struggling or who have gone through upheavals may feel restitution is called for or some kind of inequality addressed.
I think, as I have said before, and Patrick brought up, a Universal Basic Income could be the first real step. People need to be out of survival mode. I really don't think we will get too far in the direction of mutual cooperation until there is some rest from the struggle.
As Ra said, the transition to 4th density could last hundreds of years. I just hope we don't do too much damage along the way. At this point, it's a precarious situation, considering the abuse humanity has ravaged against the life here and the planet. However, the ingenuity of humanity, or perhaps, the ability of humanity to channel higher sources of information, may yield new ways to reverse damage and regrow, rebalance, and heal the planet.
I will add that I wonder why it is so important to get the answer raised in the OP? In any case, would anyone along the STO path want to infringe upon free will? I am curious what difference it would make if Ra HAD said, According to the LOO, it is not possible to infringe upon free will in 3D. What then?
I do understand that the underlying structure of this reality and others is an important issue to attempt to comprehend. The study of the Archetypes is just that.
I am also wondering what role "forgiveness" has to play in a reality where no free-will infringement is possible.
RE: Free Will Infringement, what is it? - confusedseeker - 02-13-2021
(02-13-2021, 10:11 AM)Patrick Wrote:(02-13-2021, 06:32 AM)confusedseeker Wrote:(02-13-2021, 03:26 AM)flofrog Wrote: The chatter about free will may be less valuable but Sacred Fool it also brought us your post which is in fact pretty cool : indeed some degree of a general consensus for a mutual constructive collaboration is really what is needed now... I have a feeling that we all, inward, desperately want this, so it will happen.
Hmm. Imo we are now divided than ever.
I guess it depends where you live. Here in Canada the push for a UBI is reaching our leaders more and more.
In the USA, this might seem to be the case, but it's just lagging behind a bit, the USA will get there. All that is happening over there could very well open the door to a UBI or other forms of socialism in the USA.
It is, it's what the elites want. Scary stuff.
RE: Free Will Infringement, what is it? - confusedseeker - 02-13-2021
Listen to Yuri Bezmenov.
RE: Free Will Infringement, what is it? - Patrick - 02-13-2021
(02-13-2021, 03:29 PM)confusedseeker Wrote: ...
It is, it's what the elites want. Scary stuff.
I get where you're coming from. But from my point of view, what the Elites want, is to promote this fear of socialism that you are eluding to. What they put in place with Russia and China is a resounding success on creating fear of socialism. They made it look like socialism automatically comes with dictatorship and loss of freedom. That pairing was done on purpose.
In the end, the issues we find when discussing money are not going to be reconciled. The reason being that the issue is the concept of money itself. So even a UBI is just a stopgap measure. I can't think of a 4d society where money would be needed in any form.
Here is an interesting question related to freewill infringement. What would you say to the idea that a paid employee is essentially a slave ? I don't know many people whom livelihood does not depend on wages or a salary.
RE: Free Will Infringement, what is it? - Diana - 02-13-2021
(02-13-2021, 04:07 PM)Patrick Wrote: In the end, the issues we find when discussing money are not going to be reconciled. The reason being that the issue is the concept of money itself. So even a UBI is just a stopgap measure. I can't think of a 4d society where money would be needed in any form.
Just thinking out loud. What if we had a system of credits that had no value at all besides the value we give it globally? It would be distributed to all the people on the planet. Perhaps there would be a few hours of community service for it. Every person would be issued 100,000 credits per year as the BUI. This would be the means of global exchange. The 100,000 credits would be determined to allow for a very comfortable existence for everyone, able to purchase with those credits all the basic needs with discretionary credits. There would have to be a total agreement on this system, of course.
It would also allow for those ambitious entrepreneurs to go above and beyond this basic income, by selling products etc. for some of the discretionary credits, while at the same time removing some of the control by governments and other sources trying to keep people in survival mode.
I am bypassing all the logistical challenges just to put forth a theory of how we could transition without the complete removal of capitalism.
(02-13-2021, 04:07 PM)Patrick Wrote: Here is an interesting question related to freewill infringement. What would you say to the idea that a paid employee is essentially a slave ? I don't know many people whom livelihood does not depend on wages or a salary.
That depends on a lot of things. Attitude (how one looks at one's job), poverty level, origins (country, area), etc. The idea that one must work for existence I do not agree with, considering the resources on this planet, that there is enough for everyone, especially if we stop doing certain things such as farming animals (I know, I'm so irritating the way I harp on that subject, but I'm not wrong
).I think people should do the work they want to do. And robotics will eventually replace human labor I think. So at that point, after people recuperate from the mad rush to survive, creativity will flourish.
RE: Free Will Infringement, what is it? - Patrick - 02-13-2021
Diana, I think reverse accounting would accomplish what you are suggesting but, in my opinion, in a simpler way.
We would count the resources that are used by each mostly in order to predict what needs to be produced in advance to meet the demand when it comes.
It's like going to a "store" (no employees because all automated) where you pickup all you need and there is accounting of all you took but your "account" starts at 0 and goes up (instead of starting at an amount and going down).
This way we still know what and how much of all that is used and can adjust the whole chain of automation in consequence. No need for patents or intellectual properties. All that is created is always the best version of it that we invented so far.
That's not sci-fi.
I really believe this is where we are headed. The Elites are trying to slow this down, but there is no stopping it. Because the drive for more profit is going to drive us there by automating everything. Unfortunately for the Elites, this automation, once in place, is not going to result in the dystopian paradise they envision. The instreaming 4d energies and influences are going to ensure this works to the people's advantage instead.
RE: Free Will Infringement, what is it? - Diana - 02-13-2021
I would triple-like your above post Patrick if I could.
RE: Free Will Infringement, what is it? - confusedseeker - 02-13-2021
They don't want us owning anything, they've even said it.
RE: Free Will Infringement, what is it? - confusedseeker - 02-14-2021
(02-13-2021, 04:07 PM)Patrick Wrote:(02-13-2021, 03:29 PM)confusedseeker Wrote: ...
It is, it's what the elites want. Scary stuff.
I get where you're coming from. But from my point of view, what the Elites want, is to promote this fear of socialism that you are eluding to. What they put in place with Russia and China is a resounding success on creating fear of socialism. They made it look like socialism automatically comes with dictatorship and loss of freedom. That pairing was done on purpose.
In the end, the issues we find when discussing money are not going to be reconciled. The reason being that the issue is the concept of money itself. So even a UBI is just a stopgap measure. I can't think of a 4d society where money would be needed in any form.
Here is an interesting question related to freewill infringement. What would you say to the idea that a paid employee is essentially a slave ? I don't know many people whom livelihood does not depend on wages or a salary.
I think you're very positive and optimistic, but you should also ask people who have come from socialist countries. It's not what you think. Elites will be fine, they always are.
RE: Free Will Infringement, what is it? - Ohr Ein Sof - 02-14-2021
(02-14-2021, 07:27 AM)confusedseeker Wrote:We should inquire with a Canadian seeker who has had real health issues and see how efficient the health care system is in resolving the health issues of a critically ill person, or someone needing extensive tests to diagnose an illness such as cancer, severe heart disease, blood disorders or brain disorders. How easy is it to get tests and/or admission into hospitals or to be seen by specialists? Can anyone say or speak to this with truth and honesty that resides in a country that has a socialistic government? I know a lot of Canadians come to the USA for cancer treatment, however, I do not live in Canada. Perhaps, someone in here does?(02-13-2021, 04:07 PM)Patrick Wrote:(02-13-2021, 03:29 PM)confusedseeker Wrote: ...
It is, it's what the elites want. Scary stuff.
I get where you're coming from. But from my point of view, what the Elites want, is to promote this fear of socialism that you are eluding to. What they put in place with Russia and China is a resounding success on creating fear of socialism. They made it look like socialism automatically comes with dictatorship and loss of freedom. That pairing was done on purpose.
In the end, the issues we find when discussing money are not going to be reconciled. The reason being that the issue is the concept of money itself. So even a UBI is just a stopgap measure. I can't think of a 4d society where money would be needed in any form.
Here is an interesting question related to freewill infringement. What would you say to the idea that a paid employee is essentially a slave ? I don't know many people whom livelihood does not depend on wages or a salary.
I think you're very positive and optimistic, but you should also ask people who have come from socialist countries. It's not what you think. Elites will be fine, they always are.
Maybe we could discover what is best by thinking if we want a government that cares for all of our needs or if we want a government that allows more freedom for all choices including physicians, health care, few regulations for private businesses, education (which now is sham in the USA), etc... I do not want to get into a heated debate with what is better where we begin to slander one another but, why is it better for a government to care for every need of a citizen? Why can't a citizen provide for itself?
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - Patrick - 02-14-2021
I happen to be a Canadian seeker.
I can share some personal experiences related to our Universal Healthcare (not free healthcare) and some more general opinions as well.
After loosing 110lbs of extra weight, I had to get an abdominoplasty done. This sort of thing can become a health issue if blood circulation is impacted too much within the loose skins, but that was not the case for me. If it is not an health issue then it is considered just plastic surgery. Thus it makes it low priority on the queue of surgeries. I would have waited about 2 years for something like that to be done. So instead I chose to pay myself a private surgeon to have it done within weeks.
It is my understanding that in the USA, this would have played out similarly since health insurances generally do not cover what is considered aesthetic surgeries. BUT with a glaring difference, in Canada you would still have gotten it "free" if willing to wait for your turn.
Now on the more general side of things, the wait times within our healthcare system are a bit longer than the USA, but never to a point where your health is threatened. If you have cancer for example, you're going to be handled in the same way as in the USA. It does get more murky the further away you are from being a priority. For example, if you want to consult a specialist for a skin issue, you might have to wait a couple weeks.
But in the end, if you had a choice in between waiting a couple weeks while ensuring that everyone in your society has access to healthcare or instead waiting just a couple days if you're in the lucky ones having access. I know what I would chose. So I support and greatly appreciate our system. Yes I do lose about 55% of my income in taxes of all kinds (including a 35% income tax) and about half of government spending goes to healthcare. But I am glad to do my part so that NO ONE ever has to worry about healthcare coverage.
It should also be noted that the USA pays a great deal more money for the same health services that Canada does. The fact that in the USA Healthcare is a for-profit adventure ensures this.
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - unity100 - 02-14-2021
(02-13-2021, 04:07 PM)Patrick Wrote:(02-13-2021, 03:29 PM)confusedseeker Wrote: ...
It is, it's what the elites want. Scary stuff.
I get where you're coming from. But from my point of view, what the Elites want, is to promote this fear of socialism that you are eluding to. What they put in place with Russia and China is a resounding success on creating fear of socialism. They made it look like socialism automatically comes with dictatorship and loss of freedom.
Socialism does come with loss of freedom for the elite. Their freedom to do whatever they want with the rest of the population.
That's why its scary.
Athenian 'Democracy' which is constantly pushed by Angloamerican West, was a system in which the top rich layer was free to do whatever they wanted to the order of their wealth. Entire rest of the society was disenfranchised from any power, with a large segment of them being slaves. Also women were excluded. Pro-people leaders who wanted to upset the existing order on behalf of the people were labeled 'demagogues' and 'tyrants', because they prevented the elite taking 'democratic' decisions in democratic process in which only they had voting power.
The same format existed in Republican Rome: Patricians, the rich, labeled pro-people leaders as populists (which was what they were) and they repressed them and the majority to the extent they could. In the end they ended up their own power by causing Empire to come to being after having killed Gracchi brothers to prevent their reforms.
Many can notice that the same stage play is being played today, with the same bad actors using the same 'smear' words to attack pro-people leaders: 'populist', 'demagogue', and even 'tyrant'.
Having to part with a fraction of the wealth they made off the backs of other people in corporations or stock market, is 'tyranny' too.
What's amazing is that how many people who dont even have a couple of dozen thousand dollars in the bank repeat those words and narrative as if they were billionaires themselves.
The guy on the street fights back socialized healthcare because him paying a few hundred dollars taxes to the state for guaranteed total healthcare for everyone is 'tyranny', while paying thousand dollar or more to private profiteers for a fraction of the healthcare. And its 'freedom'. As long as 'other people' can 'suck it', s/he feels 'free'.
(02-14-2021, 07:27 AM)confusedseeker Wrote: I think you're very positive and optimistic, but you should also ask people who have come from socialist countries. It's not what you think. Elites will be fine, they always are.
Im in such a socialist country, i lived in such a country, and its not what you think. You are simply wrong. For fault of believing literal liars because what they said appealed to you.
https://www.quora.com/As-a-European-would-you-prefer-the-US-healthcare-system/
Its that simple. There isnt anything complicated. Privatized healthcare is profitable therefore millions of dollars flow to all the think thanks which produce all those lies which you read in US.
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - Ohr Ein Sof - 02-15-2021
(02-14-2021, 10:43 AM)Patrick Wrote: I happen to be a Canadian seeker.
I can share some personal experiences related to our Universal Healthcare (not free healthcare) and some more general opinions as well.
After loosing 110lbs of extra weight, I had to get an abdominoplasty done. This sort of thing can become a health issue if blood circulation is impacted too much within the loose skins, but that was not the case for me. If it is not an health issue then it is considered just plastic surgery. Thus it makes it low priority on the queue of surgeries. I would have waited about 2 years for something like that to be done. So instead I chose to pay myself a private surgeon to have it done within weeks.
It is my understanding that in the USA, this would have played out similarly since health insurances generally do not cover what is considered aesthetic surgeries. BUT with a glaring difference, in Canada you would still have gotten it "free" if willing to wait for your turn.
Now on the more general side of things, the wait times within our healthcare system are a bit longer than the USA, but never to a point where your health is threatened. If you have cancer for example, you're going to be handled in the same way as in the USA. It does get more murky the further away you are from being a priority. For example, if you want to consult a specialist for a skin issue, you might have to wait a couple weeks.
But in the end, if you had a choice in between waiting a couple weeks while ensuring that everyone in your society has access to healthcare or instead waiting just a couple days if you're in the lucky ones having access. I know what I would chose. So I support and greatly appreciate our system. Yes I do lose about 55% of my income in taxes of all kinds (including a 35% income tax) and about half of government spending goes to healthcare. But I am glad to do my part so that NO ONE ever has to worry about healthcare coverage.
It should also be noted that the USA pays a great deal more money for the same health services that Canada does. The fact that in the USA Healthcare is a for-profit adventure ensures this.
Thank you Patrick for your very informative answer. This type of discussion could help dispell fears or anxiety for some of us. Myself being one of them. Especially since I have had to "wait" for a much needed surgery due to the lack of insurance when I was unemplyed and was using our government's aid. It was horrible what I had to go through just to get a preliminary MRI only to find cyst on my spinal "cord". The first MRI was denied 6 times. I finally went before the consideration board and begged them showing them records of which they already had and either never looked at or didn't care. Finally, getting the MRI it was then an emergency to get one with contrast and rushed into surgery but I waited in utter fear of my health for over a year to get even the first MRI. This situation left me wondering about the government's ability to care for its citizens when I heard of Obama-care. When you force a patient to live in such unadulterated pain and losing the ability to walk at 42 years old, was a horrible experience and one that I will never forget as it drive me to the edge of suicide.
Thank you Patrick once more.
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - Ohr Ein Sof - 02-15-2021
It's always the same s*** over and over throughout history between the rich and the so-called poor. Ugh, 3rd density is so tiresome. I am so over this place sometimes.
I am what some would consider "poor", I have a lovely home in the suburbs, I pay cash for everything and pay nothing for my vehicle or home, I make my own food and grow my own food. I am happy but I wish the government would stay out of my life until I need them to do something for me. You know, like a "hired" employee would do. Which I would say...is their job, to do what I need them to do because I pay them. That is a fairytale and this fairytale is what we are sold by our greedy, ruthless politicians. Both Democrats and Republicans. They are disgusting human beings and psychopaths as far as I am concerned. I hope they are able to polarize because it isn't looking good for them and their efforts in polarization. Lol
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - jafar - 02-22-2021
(02-14-2021, 10:43 AM)Patrick Wrote: Yes I do lose about 55% of my income in taxes of all kinds (including a 35% income tax) and about half of government spending goes to healthcare. But I am glad to do my part so that NO ONE ever has to worry about healthcare coverage.
It should also be noted that the USA pays a great deal more money for the same health services that Canada does. The fact that in the USA Healthcare is a for-profit adventure ensures this.
Having witnessed how PRC performed their 'economic miracle'.
I'll say the root cause is not in the 'money', but in 'how people see money'.
The 'issue' with US monetary system (and also other monetary system with similar structure) is that the 'banks' are privately owned thus operating with 'to gain currency profit' as goal.
This doesn't apply to PRC's banks, all banks in PRC are owned by government thus is operating with 'moving the currency as fast as possible and as wide as possible' as goal. Why should they look for 'currency profit'? Given they can produce the currency (RMB) out of thin air anyway?
How can somebody could suffer a lack of something, when that something is actually being produced from thin air?
The same thing applied to 'health service provider', on many ex-communist countries, healthcare services was provided by the government, all hospital and clinic are government owned. And since government is the one who created the currency, does it make sense for government owned health service provider to seek currency profit as it's goal?
Money and currency should be viewed as 'water' flowing in the river, the smoother it went and the wider area it cover it will bring benefit to all things within that area.
Any effort to 'block' the water by rerouting it to a 'cul-de-sac', should be considered as a 'blockage' to the water flow and will decrease the smooth flow of the water and shrink the coverage area.
And isn't it odd that the people who managed to hold so many non-flowing / stuck water in their private 'cul-de-sac' are considered by the culture as 'successful' and 'wealthy'?
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - Patrick - 02-22-2021
That is why I believe a UBI would be easy to implement. It does not need to be financed with taxes. That money would just be instantiated.
Also, ultimately I believe we will do away with money simply because it is nearly impossible to eradicate poverty or social strata while humanity is still using this obsolete tool.
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - MrWho - 02-22-2021
This is somthing worth manifesting as a collective.
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - Dtris - 02-28-2021
It appears I am in the minority here. But since this is a topic I will throw in my two cents.
First, the reference to forced sharing by Hatonn, in context, I cannot understand how anyone would read that and think "socialism". It is obvious that they were "forced" to share by their circumstances if they wanted to survive. This is common among the working poor in the USA. As a percentage of income the lowest income earners actually spend the most on charity.
Second, any system which uses force in a top down manner is evil to varying degrees. This is true whether or not the purpose is for the good of everyone. If the individual is not respected in their free will there is no point where that lack of respect can be overcome.
The basic idea of UBI is good but implementing it in a way which is possible and respects the free will of the individual is paramount.
Government is the number 1 killer of humans in history, I for one do not want them to have any more authority than absolutely necessary. In fact, I believe government in general has been one of the largest impediments to polarizing STO in human history.
Patrick Wrote:That is why I believe a UBI would be easy to implement. It does not need to be financed with taxes. That money would just be instantiated.
Also, ultimately I believe we will do away with money simply because it is nearly impossible to eradicate poverty or social strata while humanity is still using this obsolete tool.
The US has been instantiating money like crazy, that is what quantitative easing is. This is done by selling treasury bonds. Most of these are historically bought by the Fed and foreign governments. These have historically been sought after because they offered a small but guaranteed yield to the holder. However the bonds have for the last decade or so been wavering around negative yields. This is why only 1/3rd of the recent treasury bonds were purchased when released. The buying of the bonds is what allows the dollar to limit its inflation.
When money is printed to try to solve problems you get what happened in the fall of the soviet union, or currently in Venezuala, where hyperinflation devalues the currency so much it is useless. Supply and demand are also at play in monetary systems and as long as anything is used as a means of exchanging value, it will be affected by supply and demand. Printing money increases the supply, and decreases the price point, which for currency is the purchasing power. The management of the fiat currency by the Fed over the last 80 years is the reason why there has been a substantial reduction in the purchasing power of the US dollar in proportion to the average household income.
This is the reason why Cryptocurrencies like bitcoin have a limited amount of coins. You can never create another bitcoin. The relative value of the coin will change based on how much value it is perceived to have for an exchange of goods.
Diana Wrote:Just thinking out loud. What if we had a system of credits that had no value at all besides the value we give it globally? It would be distributed to all the people on the planet. Perhaps there would be a few hours of community service for it. Every person would be issued 100,000 credits per year as the BUI. This would be the means of global exchange. The 100,000 credits would be determined to allow for a very comfortable existence for everyone, able to purchase with those credits all the basic needs with discretionary credits. There would have to be a total agreement on this system, of course.
It would also allow for those ambitious entrepreneurs to go above and beyond this basic income, by selling products etc. for some of the discretionary credits, while at the same time removing some of the control by governments and other sources trying to keep people in survival mode.
I am bypassing all the logistical challenges just to put forth a theory of how we could transition without the complete removal of capitalism.
Cryptocurrency only has the value we give it globally. Technically so does the US dollar and most other nations dollars. Almost no one has a commodity tied to their currency supply anymore. The main issue with your example is that if the issued currency is created each year. You would be creating a built in inflation mechanism, decreasing the value of the currency over time.
There also seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what capitalism is. The US does not currently have a free market capitalism economy. It has a partial free market capitalism economy. Capitalism is an economic system, not a governmental system. It is also at its root simply the description of what occurs in a system with low or no barriers to entry, and perfect competition, which means many buyers and many sellers. The fundamentals of economics cannot be bypassed by governmental policy which is why socialism and communism are failed economic systems. Both rely on the government to control the means of production or to predict the markets, which is impossible.
That is why these systems result in worse economic conditions for the people and unequal results. There is a larger gap between the wealthy and poor in these systems and the number of wealthy is much smaller. Within a free market system it elevates everyone. There are more wealthy, more middle class, and much lower poor. Free will being the first distortion of the Law of One, it makes sense that the system which affords the greatest freedom to everyone produces the best results.
Of course that doesn't mean that free market capitalism using currency is the best system imaginable. I am sure there is a better way. That way I believe will only be found by increasing free choice and maximizing the ability of each individual to choose for themselves while not harming others. What people tend to think is that economics is a zero sum game, it is not. The better people do the better everyone can do, as more opportunity is available.
This is why I believe cryptocurrency will lead to the next economic system, it is the only currency which is uncontrollable. There is no government which can stop anyone from using it anywhere in the world without shutting off the internet. As soon as a decentralized internet is created which prevents ISPs from being able to control access we will see the true birth of the 4th density STO society.
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - Patrick - 02-28-2021
The way I see it, instantiating money for a UBI is just a stop gap measure. Before hyperinflation sets in I hope we would have time to replace the concept of money with reverse accounting like I mentioned in a previous post.
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - Dtris - 03-01-2021
(02-28-2021, 11:33 PM)Patrick Wrote: The way I see it, instantiating money for a UBI is just a stop gap measure. Before hyperinflation sets in I hope we would have time to replace the concept of money with reverse accounting like I mentioned in a previous post.
The only way for a system like that to work is to be able to either predict future demand and adjust supply, or to make everything as needed. When we reach a point of free energy and replicators like star trek where energy is actually free and we can create anything needed at a moments notice, then there will be no need for a means of exchanging value.
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - Patrick - 03-01-2021
It will happen long before we have replicators.
But yeah, it's just a question of time...
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - jafar - 03-01-2021
(02-22-2021, 07:40 AM)Patrick Wrote: That is why I believe a UBI would be easy to implement. It does not need to be financed with taxes.
Well "Taxes" can also be viewed as a mechanism to circulate the money faster.
It's can functioned as mechanism to suck 'money' from blockage / cul de sac, in order to restart the circulation.
The value of money is realized if and only if it was being exchanged with something that has real value.
The faster the money can circulate the more real value it will produce in the process.
A simplified model.
We can for example makes both of us a millionaire (read: earning $1 M a year) with only one $100 bill.
The rule is simple, I massage you for 1 minute and then you pay me $100, then you massage me for 1 minute and then I pay you $100. Do that continuously throughout the year.
It's the 'service of massage' that creates value and not the money.
From the 'economic output' perspective, both of us has created $2 M a year by continuously circulating one $100 bill.
Now let's say due to the some reason I decided to 'withheld' the $100 bill, creating a blockage of continuous exchange of 1 $100 bill, the results will be both of us will earn $0 a year. That's the simplified version of 'economical crisis'.
And actually another 'root issue' to tackle is related to "individual / group / private ownership", this is actually the issue which resulted in the conflict between European settler and Native American in the first place. Native Americans are bewildered with the concept of "Private Land Ownership", to them the land and any animal or plant on it cannot belong to a human or specific human, as thus it become forbidden for them hunt or graze in that land that belong to somebody else.
They do however recognize the concept of "Land Appropriation" thus they cannot hunt on specific land because it's sacred and so on, but the concept that a Bison standing on a land become a private property of the owner of that land is confusing for them.
Nowadays the concept has been extended to an 'idea' as well, thus the concept of 'intellectual property' and 'copyright' was born. Some countries does not whole-heartedly embraced this model, specifically PRC and Russia, that's why copying and 'stealing intellectual property' is justified from their point of view.
Imagine if Mr Ra demands llresearch to pay a 'royalty fee' for every Law of One book being sold, or for every quote that is cited here on this forum or elsewhere on the internet. Isn't it ridiculous?
To counter 'copyright' the opposite movement of 'copyleft' was born, GNU / Free Software Foundation started the "Free Software" movement, where Free is Free as in Freedom and not Free as in Free Beer.
Thanks to such movement this forum can be created with a very low cost, as the software for this forum (MyBB) is a available for "Free", free as in freedom.
Wikipedia is another derivative product which was based on the some concept, knowledge and information should be freely shared.
How does the 'economical system' should evolve?
I personally don't have the right answer, I can only pinpoint the issues of what we have now.
Perhaps by forming a 'social memory complex' as explained by Mr Ra will drive the evolutive eradication of private property.
As not only 'property', even something that's viewed at the moment as 'very private' such as 'memory' will eventually being shared.
It means I know all of your passwords and you all also know all of my passwords.
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - flofrog - 03-01-2021
Jafar, I think you are on the right answer with the social memory complex, I immediately feel the melting sort of erases the sense of private property...
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - jafar - 03-04-2021
(03-01-2021, 08:36 PM)flofrog Wrote: Jafar, I think you are on the right answer with the social memory complex, I immediately the melting sort of erases the sens3 of private property...
Yes the 'concept' of memory sharing that come with 'social memory complex' is indeed a powerful tools, although might be still be far away from our current state.
It's the memory that define 'each of us' as a separated 'each of us'.
When let say I lost all the memory of 'jafar' and it's being replaced with "Cathy"'s memory then I will no longer be Jafar but Cathy. But when I have the memory of "Jafar" and "Cathy" then I will be both Jafar and Cathy.
The similitude is like, when I lost the password to "jafar" yet know the password of 'flofrog' then I will be 'flofrog' in this forum universe. But when I know the password to "jafar" and "flofrog" then I will be both in this forum universe.
Then it's back to the question of "Who or What AM I" actually is?
If it's not merely a consciousness with a specific set of memory.
And with the understanding that "my higher self" have access to "my memory", thus it can also be said that I'm merely a projection or a human avatar of "my higher self", only one among many of my other avatars. Which I cannot identify myself to because of the lack of access to the other avatar's memory (the veil). But when I do then I will be 'them' as well.
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - unity100 - 03-07-2021
(02-22-2021, 02:55 AM)jafar Wrote: Having witnessed how PRC performed their 'economic miracle'.
I'll say the root cause is not in the 'money', but in 'how people see money'.
The 'issue' with US monetary system (and also other monetary system with similar structure) is that the 'banks' are privately owned thus operating with 'to gain currency profit' as goal.
Nah. Banks are just an instrument. They dont determine the end result. What determines the end result is who owns and controls the economy - the people, or private profiteers.
US didnt have any major bank presence back in 19th century and yet 12 robber barons ended up controlling every single sector and making people work worse than slaves. Immense riches went only to a tinier fraction of society even more than today. So its not the banks who make the difference - its who call the shots in the economy, and how much of the economic value they gobble up.
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - mitote - 03-08-2021
(02-28-2021, 10:09 PM)Dtris Wrote: This is why I believe cryptocurrency will lead to the next economic system, it is the only currency which is uncontrollable. There is no government which can stop anyone from using it anywhere in the world without shutting off the internet. As soon as a decentralized internet is created which prevents ISPs from being able to control access we will see the true birth of the 4th density STO society.
Great post. You might be interested in nexus.io that community is basically trying to achieve exactly what you describe (decentralized internet + crypto). Its sorta a funny situation over there on one hand it basically seems like they are really doing the great work and setting that sort of decentralized foundation for SMC, but on the other hand I am somewhat convinced the people leading it are in contact with the Orion group. Theres no proof of that, but its based on my experience being close to interpersonal dynamics within the project and various supporting details (pm me if you need the details). The community is actually very kind and welcoming so you may want to check it out.
I used to work with that community and was paid for a few articles, but I eventually left after having an intense initiatory experience with my heart center. Leaving might of not been the best idea and my intuition may have been off, but basically I stopped believing in technological solutions to societies problems and was getting more suspicious of the potential Orion influence.
Heres a shortish piece I wrote on the basis of digital communication, it goes into some of the reasons why I am doubtful of digital infrastructure as our saving grace (its obviously not all bad!) https://lunarlove.substack.com/p/the-basic-patterns-of-digital-communication
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - Ymarsakar - 03-09-2021
One of the more clever STS introductions was the idea of the monetary system. Which goes back around 6000 years.
It is quite ingenious actually.
RE: [split] Free will infringement and the monetary system - Patrick - 03-09-2021
It practically does the work for them.