(08-15-2011, 08:49 PM)Raman Wrote: However, Venus had same veil characteristics and the 3d evolution was harmonious. So the veil situation appears to be not so clear here.

Quote:It is true that their social complex was composed of 'Ra people' as opposed to this planet's diverse composition, however, Maldek and Mars as far as I know were also fairly homogeneous, at least there is nothing in The Ra Material to suggest otherwise.

Quote:So the homogeneity of the population does not seem a big factor neither...although the conditions on Maldek and Mars that led to what occurred in both of those planets are different, with much more negativity or service to self in Maldek.

Quote:But it seems there was no quarantine in Maldek and or Mars.

Quote:So here was earth a third density planet just begun its fresh first cycle and it was seeded with 3d life forms not originally from the planet.

Quote:Maldekians resolved the issue by karmic restitution, Martians?----it seems the Social Memory Complex that transplanted them did not respect(?) their free will.

Quote:So is/are the situation/s that you are portraying just referring to earth's?

Quote:Would have been a better idea to have transferred Martians to another planet in a 3d environment that does not allow opposable thumbs, etc?

Quote:It was a GUARDIAN who did this. A positive entity, by the way.

Quote:It seems to me that the 3d unharvestables would have more opportunity to graduate in a planet where 3d entities are plants, water based or amphibians without possibility of developing nuclear weapons or contamination that could destroy a biosphere.

(08-16-2011, 04:12 PM)unity100 Wrote: we were told that in venus the veil was lighter.

Quote:It is true that their social complex was composed of 'Ra people' as opposed to this planet's diverse composition, however, Maldek and Mars as far as I know were also fairly homogeneous, at least there is nothing in The Ra Material to suggest otherwise.

Quote:we dont know about that.

Quote:So the homogeneity of the population does not seem a big factor neither...although the conditions on Maldek and Mars that led to what occurred in both of those planets are different, with much more negativity or service to self in Maldek.

Quote:maldek was told to be a potential for mixed harvest. not negative.

Quote:But it seems there was no quarantine in Maldek and or Mars.

Quote:no such info was given. instead, about this planet's veil, what was told was that 'the light quarantine that would be in place was made heavier' after yahweh's genetic modification flop. this means, there was going to be a quarantine on this planet, but it was made stronger. this implies all 3d planets get quarantined, light, or heavy.

Quote:So here was earth a third density planet just begun its fresh first cycle and it was seeded with 3d life forms not originally from the planet.

Quote:that is not correct. the body used on this planet was evolved here from 2d forms. this was repeatedly mentioned. genetic material was brought with bodies moved here from mars, but these bodies were told to be incapable of reproducing. yet, yahweh still had done a genetic intervention at the start of this planet's 3d, from what we are told. (how did that happen with bodies unable to reproduce beats me - maybe they modified earth evolved bodies here). these modified bodies mixed with others.

also the native souls graduated in this planet was numbered around 2 billion i believe, in the material.

Quote:

Quote:Maldekians resolved the issue by karmic restitution, Martians?----it seems the Social Memory Complex that transplanted them did not respect(?) their free will.

[quote
that complex was yahweh. and what are you basing your conclusion of non-respecting of free will on ?

Quote:9.8 Questioner: The guardians were obviously acting within an understanding of the Law of One in doing this. Can you explain the application of the Law of One in this process?

Ra: I am Ra. The Law of One was named by these guardians as the bringing of the wisdom of the guardians in contact with the entities from the Red Planet, thus melding the social memory complex of the guardian race and the Red Planet race. It, however, took an increasing amount of distortion into the application of the Law of One from the viewpoint of other guardians and it is from this beginning action that the quarantine of this planet was instituted, for it was felt that the free will of those of the Red Planet had been abridged.

Quote:It was a GUARDIAN who did this. A positive entity, by the way.

Quote:yahweh.

Quote:It seems to me that the 3d unharvestables would have more opportunity to graduate in a planet where 3d entities are plants, water based or amphibians without possibility of developing nuclear weapons or contamination that could destroy a biosphere.

Quote:totally dependent on deep biases of the entity. every soul is fit in the appropriate environment.

(08-16-2011, 07:40 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote:

(08-16-2011, 04:12 PM)unity100 Wrote: we were told that in venus the veil was lighter.

I don't remember that, and it surprises me because Ra has the same archetypical mind as we do. Can you provide a reference?

(08-16-2011, 08:14 PM)zenmaster Wrote:

(08-16-2011, 07:40 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote:

(08-16-2011, 04:12 PM)unity100 Wrote: we were told that in venus the veil was lighter.

I don't remember that, and it surprises me because Ra has the same archetypical mind as we do. Can you provide a reference?

I don't remember reading that either. Even the indigo-ray adept toils under the veil in the entire extant creation.

(08-16-2011, 10:12 PM)Raman Wrote:

(08-16-2011, 08:14 PM)zenmaster Wrote:

(08-16-2011, 07:40 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote:

(08-16-2011, 04:12 PM)unity100 Wrote: we were told that in venus the veil was lighter.

I don't remember that, and it surprises me because Ra has the same archetypical mind as we do. Can you provide a reference?

I don't remember reading that either. Even the indigo-ray adept toils under the veil in the entire extant creation.

Well, zenmaster made a joke and made me laugh...what's wrong?

(08-16-2011, 10:31 PM)3DMonkey Wrote:

(08-16-2011, 10:12 PM)Raman Wrote:

(08-16-2011, 08:14 PM)zenmaster Wrote:

(08-16-2011, 07:40 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote:

(08-16-2011, 04:12 PM)unity100 Wrote: we were told that in venus the veil was lighter.

I don't remember that, and it surprises me because Ra has the same archetypical mind as we do. Can you provide a reference?

I don't remember reading that either. Even the indigo-ray adept toils under the veil in the entire extant creation.

Well, zenmaster made a joke and made me laugh...what's wrong?

Hahahaha. What's wrong? is that you've missed out on all the humorous posts from zenmaster's past.

(tip: read every post as a joke first, serious second )

(08-16-2011, 10:35 PM)Icaro Wrote: I remember reading that the veil had less of an influence on Venus because the planet is closer to the sun, much like systems closer to the center of the galaxy create a stronger will to seek. Something like that.

(08-16-2011, 08:14 PM)zenmaster Wrote:

(08-16-2011, 07:40 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote:

(08-16-2011, 04:12 PM)unity100 Wrote: we were told that in venus the veil was lighter.

I don't remember that, and it surprises me because Ra has the same archetypical mind as we do. Can you provide a reference?

I don't remember reading that either. Even the indigo-ray adept toils under the veil in the entire extant creation.

(08-18-2011, 10:41 PM)zenmaster Wrote: Interesting thought process, and I've come to many of the same conclusions, but not sure we can conclude that the veil was lighter on Venus. I think it's reasonable to say that the permeability of the unconscious is strongly related to the will and desire of focus as well as the inherent physical constraints (ape-form, brain). In third density, this development (of unconscious 'connectivity') could be fostered by a common need to survive in a certain way - for example methods which organized society in a more harmonious manner. As we move up the chakras, for example, certain ethical principles could become more evident without a lighter veil, if they were understood and taught in a receptive environment. Also better methods of parenting, educating, idea of community, better use of free time, more effective spirituality, etc.

(08-19-2011, 05:51 AM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: Your understanding of the differences on Earth and Venus seems both subtle and profound. However, your understanding of the veil is different than mine. I understand it to be architectural and hence identical throughout the creation of our sub-Logos, and I suspect that it's not all that different throughout the creation of our Logos.

What you take to be differences in the veil I understand to be different free will responses to third density.

(08-19-2011, 05:51 AM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: Your understanding of the differences on Earth and Venus seems both subtle and profound. However, your understanding of the veil is different than mine. I understand it to be architectural and hence identical throughout the creation of our sub-Logos, and I suspect that it's not all that different throughout the creation of our Logos.

What you take to be differences in the veil I understand to be different free will responses to third density.

(08-19-2011, 11:35 AM)Raman Wrote: Mentioning speech manipulation and Denebians, is there anything in the Ra material that could be hinting to another manipulation by another group in the for example Denebians case or once the martians were manipulated, this was the base for all others including Denebians, etc?

(08-19-2011, 11:18 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: So do you think that we, now, don't have free will? It seems clear to me that we do, but it sounds like you think we don't.

(08-19-2011, 11:44 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote: I would walk a similar line as Unity in saying that the free will in this Logos is somewhat compromised. We can take an extreme example of this in the act of torture. Someone who is restrained, kept alive, and tortured has no choice in the matter and obviously suffers greatly. The only free will they have is how they feel about the situation, but nothing within their free will allows them to escape the situation. On top of that, how much free will does that person have to genuinely feel about a situation like that when our psychology would prevent us from being happy with it?

Basically, what it seems like to me, is the free will which was available to us was too easily turned against us. STS individuals can use their own free will to limit the free will of others. Without venturing into a victimization standpoint, I don't find this balanced.

I also feel like Unity's point is valid. In an environment as harsh as our's, survival comes before choice. When making a preferred choice could indirectly lead to the cessation of the incarnation, I don't feel like that is balanced either.

Quote:71.14 Questioner: You have made the statement that pure negativity acts as a gravity well pulling all into it. I was wondering first if pure positivity has precisely the same effect? Could you answer that please?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. Positivity has a much weaker effect due to the strong element of recognition of free will in any positivity approaching purity. Thus although the negatively oriented entity may find it difficult to polarize negatively in the midst of such resounding harmony it will not find it impossible.

Upon the other hand, the negative polarization is one which does not accept the concept of the free will of other-selves. Thusly in a social complex whose negativity approaches purity the pull upon other-selves is constant. A positively oriented entity in such a situation would desire for other-selves to have their free will and thusly would find itself removed from its ability to exercise its own free will, for the free will of negatively oriented entities is bent upon conquest.

(08-19-2011, 11:52 PM)Confused Wrote: Good points, a! You and unity100 have brought out some very nuanced points well. They are difficult to accept; but if one views this in a disinterested mode, it does appear there is strong backing for this from the LOO -

Quote:71.14 Questioner: You have made the statement that pure negativity acts as a gravity well pulling all into it. I was wondering first if pure positivity has precisely the same effect? Could you answer that please?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. Positivity has a much weaker effect due to the strong element of recognition of free will in any positivity approaching purity. Thus although the negatively oriented entity may find it difficult to polarize negatively in the midst of such resounding harmony it will not find it impossible.

Upon the other hand, the negative polarization is one which does not accept the concept of the free will of other-selves. Thusly in a social complex whose negativity approaches purity the pull upon other-selves is constant. A positively oriented entity in such a situation would desire for other-selves to have their free will and thusly would find itself removed from its ability to exercise its own free will, for the free will of negatively oriented entities is bent upon conquest.

Quote:42.2 Questioner: I will attempt to make an analogy. If an animal, shall I say, a bull, in a pen attacks you because you have wandered into his pen, you get out of his way rapidly but you do not blame him. You do not have much of an emotional response other than the response that he might damage you. However, if you encounter another self in his territory and he attacks you, your response may be more of an emotional nature creating physical bodily responses. Am I correct in assuming that when your response to the animal and to the other-self is that of seeing both as Creator and loving both and understanding their action in attacking you is the action of their free will then you have balanced yourself correctly in this area? Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. This is basically correct. However, the balanced entity will see in the seeming attack of an other-self the causes of this action which are, in most cases, of a more complex nature than the cause of the attack of the second-density bull as was your example. Thus this balanced entity would be open to many more opportunities for service to a third-density other-self.

(08-20-2011, 12:29 AM)abridgetoofar Wrote: Why is a choice like this necessary? The preferred choice, allowing the other-self to do as it pleases, would end in the cessation of incarnation. Can we really call it freewill when the preferred choice kills us?

(08-20-2011, 12:37 AM)Confused Wrote: You/we are doing the research and the homework, and when you/we become the expert(s), you/we will go and present this at the Board Meeting of the Galactic Logoi. I am saying that metaphorically, of course, but I meant it.

(08-20-2011, 01:02 AM)abridgetoofar Wrote: That is going to be one long metaphorical PowerPoint presentation.

(08-20-2011, 01:31 AM)zenmaster Wrote: It is certainly the case that 'true will' or the being on one's path is a reduction of complexity to a point of one way. This is understood. But if you want to relate the incidental aspects, there is necessarily a complexity.

(08-19-2011, 11:44 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote: The only free will they have is how they feel about the situation,

(08-20-2011, 12:29 AM)abridgetoofar Wrote: As stated, the balanced entity would not react in any way except to protect the free will of the other first, and their own body complex second. Let's say there is no escape, and the only options are to harm the other entity or to let it harm you (completely possible situation). Why is a choice like this necessary? The preferred choice, allowing the other-self to do as it pleases, would end in the cessation of incarnation. Can we really call it freewill when the preferred choice kills us? In my opinion, if we experienced true freewill, death would not be the only option for an entity wishing to preserve the freewill of an other-self.

(08-20-2011, 08:33 AM)3DMonkey Wrote:

(08-19-2011, 11:44 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote: The only free will they have is how they feel about the situation,

IMO, this is the one and only correct summation of what "free will" is. I think to go beyond that is folly.

---

(08-20-2011, 12:29 AM)abridgetoofar Wrote: As stated, the balanced entity would not react in any way except to protect the free will of the other first, and their own body complex second. Let's say there is no escape, and the only options are to harm the other entity or to let it harm you (completely possible situation). Why is a choice like this necessary? The preferred choice, allowing the other-self to do as it pleases, would end in the cessation of incarnation. Can we really call it freewill when the preferred choice kills us? In my opinion, if we experienced true freewill, death would not be the only option for an entity wishing to preserve the freewill of an other-self.

Free. Free to choose whatever mental reaction. That's it. .... IMO, take death out of the equation because we will die, and that is that.

(08-20-2011, 02:32 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote:

(08-20-2011, 08:33 AM)3DMonkey Wrote:

(08-19-2011, 11:44 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote: The only free will they have is how they feel about the situation,

IMO, this is the one and only correct summation of what "free will" is. I think to go beyond that is folly.

---

(08-20-2011, 12:29 AM)abridgetoofar Wrote: As stated, the balanced entity would not react in any way except to protect the free will of the other first, and their own body complex second. Let's say there is no escape, and the only options are to harm the other entity or to let it harm you (completely possible situation). Why is a choice like this necessary? The preferred choice, allowing the other-self to do as it pleases, would end in the cessation of incarnation. Can we really call it freewill when the preferred choice kills us? In my opinion, if we experienced true freewill, death would not be the only option for an entity wishing to preserve the freewill of an other-self.

Free. Free to choose whatever mental reaction. That's it. .... IMO, take death out of the equation because we will die, and that is that.

I disagree. Going back to the example of being tortured...what if the person being tortured wished to escape? What if they wished to not be tortured? Or wished to die to stop the suffering? Simply wished not to suffer? None of these things would happen. Their free will is not honored in any sense. Being free to think "hmm...being tortured isn't so bad" is definitely not my opinion of free will.