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+---- Thread: the amish dont get autism: VACCINES (/showthread.php?tid=1629)
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - ExperiencedGhost - 12-08-2009
Incredible, poor people... you are only looking at very small part of the whole. I am not going to discuss about procedures of how to handle vaccins and so on because I am not familiar with that. I do not claim something that I don't know. However, because I had a nasty experience some months ago where I did see the whole, I do recognize acts of constructions towards the nwo. That virus is just one of the many. One point of the nwo-agenda for reaching their goal is really to depopulate the world for one reason only. And the proof has been shown many times, too many people are hard to control and they do not obey the nwo-spokesmen. Many refused to take one of the few vaccins. Less people are easier to handle and to manupulate, in other words to control what they think, eat, speak, when to speak when to eat, what to say... You get the picture.
What I saw was -I call this the connection- every thing from our past, present and future that is tied together. The nwo has been constructed a long time ago. Religions, architecturial & political & entertaining & ... structures, events like wars, famines, diseases, schools... just everything.
Today it's that virus that's just a created flu (just like most of the other virusses you have heard of), in the mean while the media -controlled media- is focussing on the Kopenhagen stuff -what is a hoax on itself- so people would not be focussed on the rumours of the nasty effects of the vaiccins. Try to see all that as a whole - what that really is.
Only then you will not like the word "conspiracy" these days but rather "truth".
That camelot and others has been going downhill is because of the actions taking against them, to make them not trustworthy anymore. And that is working. They have been fed wrong info by a spoon, little by little.
Don't mind what Jane Burgemeister is saying, just watch the following up about the countries. I have let them know about 2 small kids that died after being vaccinated in the netherlands, they didn't put it on-line. I gave them even the URL of the official newspaper-website, perhaps soon. They have to translate that before posting of course.
If nanovaccins do exist than what will our future bring ? I know I refuse every vaccin. I am stronger without it, even every doctor I know don't take a vaccin ! They're saying that our body must become stonger by making anti-whatever against by itself. I agree with that. You can treat someone who is very ill but do not give a vaccin.
A vaccin replaces the working of your body and that can not be good but in fact makes your body's defense system weaker. Something they (nwo) want of course ! They do not want to become healthy or better when you're sick by natural means, they want you to buy their chemicals and swallow that. Once again your immune system will be weaken. It's a neverending loop. In this case they controll you big time. You want meds ? Buy our stuff while you know it will weaken you. Even in today meds something has been added that weakens your immune system, a little gift from them. Did you knew this ?
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - ExperiencedGhost - 12-08-2009
(12-08-2009, 02:07 AM)Peregrinus Wrote: In truth, this is only the tip of the iceberg. If you knew as to the actual extent of the depth of all this... it's probably better you don't.I know... I have to deal with it every day and that's hard
(12-08-2009, 02:07 AM)Peregrinus Wrote: My friend and I have decided to buy (not genetically modified) seed and have a huge 40 acre garden next summer, and ensure that many people are fed from it, good wholesome no pesticide vegetables.[/quote]
Don't forget the chemicals in the air, polluted air, or better chemtrails. There's always something falling down on the ground, on your ground where you grow vegetables seeping into the ground...
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - Lorna - 12-08-2009
experiencedghost - the scenario you describe brings to my mind the 4d service to self path, which is something i have no wish to experience
i don't doubt that you had that experience, but that outcome is one of three paths - 4d sto, 4d sts and the continuation of 3d somewhere other than earth
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - Ali Quadir - 12-08-2009
Monica, do you want a real answer or continue to believe your chosen vaccination beliefs? Because I can go away and ignore this topic if you prefer. And I'm sensing we're on a collision course. You're heavily invested in this topic, and I don't agree with you, also I'm a stubborn git. I'm not going to agree with you unless you come with really eye opening science that somehow makes all the other facts evaporate.
The video you showed (or at least the first part of it) is so full of nonsense that I really can't get through the first part. I don't think I'll be able to watch all of it.
If I missed anything you consider important or smoking gun material, specific please tell me the specific video and the time to check so I can check it. I get too angry watching the video, I don't like being lied to in this manner (combination of emotion with misinformation), and I don't have the time or desire to debunk it line by line.
The measles graph kind of drop kicked me to the ground. It's a blatant lie. First of all, it clearly lists "Death rates" and shows they have been going down. Yeah, measles are a life threatening disease only in the most primitive of countries. So as the house doctor became available to most people death rates declined drastically... The prevalence of the disease did however not decrease 90% as is clearly visible from the following table. And the brain damage that is caused by measles is conveniently not mentioned in your video. Long term brain damage as a complication is not very common in measles. But it still happens more than with the vaccin.
http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
If you look at page 875 there is a "Specified reportable diseases" that clearly shows that the 90% reduction suggested in your video is either utter nonsense or at least does not relate to prevalence.
Vaccines are supposed to reduce prevalence. And you see a clear drop around 1965 when the vaccination became mainstream.
But of course, this is yet another example of the government lying to us?
Whooping cough is the exact same situation. The decrease in prevalence is clear. And again the nice people in the video are clearly misrepresenting it.
Also FYI Pubmed is a collection database, it's not a "source" as you call it, it contains evidence for homeopathy, evidence for vaccines. Even evidence for bigfoot, telepathy, telekinesis and what not. It doesn't sound very selective to me.
But it doesn't matter, it wasn't my only "source" as you assumed. This anti vaccination stuff has been going mainstream for a little while now. I've been following it for over a year, including the blacklash of the increase in avoidable diseases in Australia. I had my moments of doubt but they really don't stand the test of scrutiny.
I'm sorry but in spite of "popular" opinion vaccination DOES work. CDC, WHO and the like are still a bunch unethical bastards stealing from the world and betraying the trust the worlds nations place in them. But vaccination still works.
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - ExperiencedGhost - 12-08-2009
I expressed myself badly I think. I sat before my pc for 3 days, halfway I finally saw that connection because I was investigating much rumours and so on. Surfing from youtube to scientific websites to conspiracy websites to italian websites to... and looking thinks up to understand and so on... a real investigation. Then I understood and had a panic attack. 30 min. later i was calm again for so far I could be. I talked about that experience. Nothing else.
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - transiten - 12-08-2009
Hi
Well sunset, i am one of the "suckers" that made a donation to Jane Burgermeisters website and i must admit i had a bad feeling afterwards...
but i don't know if it's because i've been brainwashed by this meditationguru, and had several destructive codependencyrelationships, a shizophrenic mother with persecutionmania, a jealous mean stepmother and a "kind" but weak father..
...and that my entrance upon this forum might be a hughe mirror for me to recognize once more the patterns i already am aware of but have not managed to finally break yet...
...personal and collective shadows erupting simultaneously...
I also realize that it is impossible for me to totally believe in any of the opposites that are presented here. This thread also shows the polarization taking place in the world at large. I just have to give in, and give up although my alternative therapist who is the most respected one in Sweden said to me today that regarding the "flucase" the situation is worse than one want to believe (NWO and UN included)
I will try to create my own personal heaven for the time ahead, and leave this whole question to digest for itself.
Namaste Time is 15:15
[/b]
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - 3D Sunset - 12-08-2009
(12-08-2009, 10:15 AM)transiten Wrote: Well sunset, i am one of the "suckers" that made a donation to Jane Burgermeisters website and i must admit i had a bad feeling afterwards...
My dear friend transiten,
You should not feel badly about anything you do with a loving, giving heart. I deeply regret my choice of words, they reflected my frustration with those that seek to exploit, not those that are exploited, such as yourself.
I have followed, with varying degrees of interest, stories about the Illuminati, NWO, Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Free Masons, Knights Templar, and host of other conspirators over the last 30 years. The one thing that they all have in common is the desire to create fear and a sense of impending doom.
What I find most refreshing about this website, is that it represents a faction that have formed a conspiracy of love, acceptance, healing, and excitement for the great future of our planet and its inhabitants.
My original reason for posting on this thread was because I sensed such a foreboding mindset among so many of the participants. The world is rife with conspiracies, conspirators, and counter-conspiracies. If you go down that rabbit hole you will find them embedded and integrated and nested so deeply that you will never come out. But worst of all, with each layer of the onion that you peel, you will become more and more mistrusting of your fellow man, your elected governments, and ultimately even yourself. This is, in my humble opinion, the true aim behind all conspiracy theories: To slowly erode away our faith in the good aspects of human nature.
This is why I reject all conspiracy theories. Not because I know they are all false, but because the way to counteract the conspiracy's aim of fear of doom and mistrust is not by fighting it. It is by transcending it and responding with love and acceptance and caring.
Personally, I think this thread should be deleted, because I see it creating a wedge between some of our most prolific and respected members. This is a shame, and one which I wish was not allowed to happen.
At this time of holiday festivities and planning I would simply ask that we please, release all thoughts of negative conspiracies and redouble our efforts in our positive conspiracy of love, light, and acceptance.
Love and Light to all!
3D Sunset
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - transiten - 12-08-2009
...and of course the natural question i posed on DC and monica here on Bring4th:
How does the "elite" avoid getting the flu or whatever disease they're suspected having thrown upon us? I understand that they have vaccines without adjuvants and mercury, but the disease per se???
This is really a crucial question whatever our beliefs in this matter don't you think?
transiten
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - ayadew - 12-08-2009
Hey 3D Sunset: I miss you!
Thank you for your post.Conspiracies are for some a tool for awakening, albeit often filled with negativity in the ways you describe.
Forgive your fellow man for being themselves. The immense amount of fear which is pumped into us now are from people who likely feel very bad about themselves, or are simply not conscious about the effects of their choices.
Everything stems from ourselves. There is no "they" or "others" or something that should be destroyed.
I am more concerned about those who wants to destroy those who commit atrocities than those who actually commit. The committees are simply unconscious. Being unconscious is the easiest thing in the world.
Forget and forgive.
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - Monica - 12-08-2009
(12-08-2009, 10:53 AM)transiten Wrote: ...and of course the natural question i posed on DC and monica here on Bring4th:
How does the "elite" avoid getting the flu or whatever disease they're suspected having thrown upon us? I understand that they have vaccines without adjuvants and mercury, but the disease per se???
This is really a crucial question whatever our beliefs in this matter don't you think?
I agree 100%! That's why I don't believe they have a massive depopulation scheme planned...because they are, after all, human...although some of them might want the others to think that.
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - fairyfarmgirl - 12-08-2009
Hmmmm..... 3D sunset thank you for your gentle reminder...
Love--
fairyfarmgirl
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - Monica - 12-08-2009
(12-08-2009, 06:50 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: Monica, do you want a real answer or continue to believe your chosen vaccination beliefs?
My dear friend Ali: I invite you to consider that there is no such thing as a 'real' answer. We live in a holographic UniVerse which responds to our free will. In my opinion, this translates to a tendency to accommodate whatever we each choose to believe. I've observed this to be true.
Case in point: I have a lot of respect for Dr. Mercola's work on exposing the corruption in the medical industry, and his extensive library of well-documented vaccine info (which I posted earlier, in the same post as those videos...perhaps it might be more to your liking?). But, I vehemently disagree with his views on the vegetarian diet! I find it interesting how Dr. Mercola, an MD with a fair share of mainstream credentials, could arrive at the conclusions he has regarding diet. Other MDs with similar credentials arrive at totally opposite conclusions!
Does this mean that I should believe nothing Dr. Mercola says about anything? Personally, would answer No to that question. I subscribe to Dr. Mercola's newsletter and find much of value. If I read something that doesn't resonate, I either toss it aside, or I cross-reference it with other sources, depending on my level of interest in that particular topic.
Don't we all do that, to some degree? Can anyone among us claim to have completely figured out the 'real answer' to anything? Don't we all still have varying degrees of distortion, biases, and presuppositions? How, then, could one person's conclusion be considered 'chosen beliefs' while another's be considered a 'real answer?'
I invite you to consider that my opinion is neither better nor worse than yours. We have both researched the vaccination issue to the degree that it was important to us. We used some of the same sources, as well as some different sources. Rather than seeing this as a debate to be 'won' I prefer to see it as a sharing of ideas, offered for consideration.
(12-02-2009, 10:04 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote:Bring4th_Monica Wrote:Which is evident.(12-01-2009, 04:01 PM)Ali Quadir Wrote: Before anything else, let me assure you that I do not believe vaccinations to be a panacea, I just believe them to be potentially better than the diseases they protect us against.
That's what I thought too at one time. But that presupposes that:
a.) vaccines work
What is considered evident or even obvious to one person isn't necessarily so to another. I question the very premise you consider a given.
That, imo, is a more important point than whether you and I ever agree on vaccinations or not. I think an important key to establishing peace on this planet is for us to be able to respect that something we consider a 'given' is not a given in someone else's mind.
For example, a person who believe that the Bible is the infallible 'word of God' might say, "God said it so it's true" presupposing that we agree that if the Bible says God said, then that means God said it. That person might not have ever considered the possibility that the very premise (of the words in the Bible being God's words) could be legitimately questioned by someone who didn't share his presuppositions and paradigm.
So, my invitation here is that, when we discuss these volatile topics, we remember that we all have different paradigms, and what seems obvious to one person isn't so to another. We are like the blind men describing the elephant...we each have a piece of the truth but none of us has all the truth.
(12-02-2009, 10:04 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote:Bring4th_Monica Wrote:b.) there aren't alternative methods for treating the diseasesAn alternative method to treat the disease also has side effects may not work and usually is much less preferable to just not getting the disease.
In general, alternative therapies have far fewer and far less severe side effects than allopathic drugs. The path of taking on a serious disease using alternative methods isn't for everyone! There is no way I would recommend that someone eating a mainstream diet and not knowledgeable about herbs, homeopathy, etc. take this on.
I offer this only as an option, for those who would choose it. For those already adhering to an alternative lifestyle, diseases aren't as scary, and many other preventative and treatment options exist.
I don't seek to completely eradicate the option of vaccines. I seek to offer alternatives, and end the suppression of opposing viewpoints by the mainstream media. Right now, the allopathic multi-billion-$-per-year medical industry has a monopoly on disease management. They actively seek to discredit anyone who challenges them. (Yes, I can back up that statement, but I'd rather not, as it would be time consuming.)
I champion the efforts being made by those courageous parents who have taken on the vaccination issue. I am just thankful that it was never an issue for me. Those parents have engaged a behemoth adversary.
That's not my path, but I respect what they're doing. I just try to offer some little tidbits of info, for those who might be interested.
(12-02-2009, 10:04 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: This isn't a relevant side track.. I believe in homeopathy. I know there is much evidence for it. I don't know about this particular case but I'll take it as read.
The reason it's relevant is this: What if you could confer immunity to a disease with a homeopathic nosode, with zero side effects? Wouldn't that be preferable?
Such remedies exist. Why should we subject ourselves to toxins unnecessarily?
At this point, homeopathy isn't mainstream enough for most people to use it properly. They just don't have the necessary knowledge. But why isn't that avenue being explored? Hmmm...could the fact that homeopathic remedies are dirt cheap have anything to do with it?
(12-02-2009, 10:04 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: You have to understand that you're listening to the channels of the sellers to the average and usually pretty uninformed and uninterested population. If you look at the science then no one is painting a black and white picture at all.
I submit that even the science isn't so clear-cut. There's that little inconvenience of gathering data...the gathering of data relies on humans...and humans have biases.
(12-02-2009, 10:04 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote:Bring4th_Monica Wrote:I know 2 women who are military nurses. Both of them told me that if anyone comes to the hospital with a sniffle, they have been instructed to record it as swine flu. ??? No verification. None. This is a clear example of inaccurate reporting.This is also not relevant to the issue of whether vaccination works..
Does not the issue of whether vaccination works or not, depend on accurate gathering of data?
(12-02-2009, 10:04 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: It's very very irresponsible to ban vaccinations...
I don't recall anyone suggesting that vaccines be banned. I think they should remain available to those who would choose them. I simply would like to see more openness about their true nature and controversial aspects, so people can make a more informed decision.
(12-02-2009, 10:04 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: We were not healthier 200 years ago. Life expectancy of the countries where people are vaccinated is drastically higher than countries where this does not happen. And so is quality of life.
I have a friend in a nursing home. Every week, when I visit her, I have to psyche myself up to enter that place. The pain is so prevalent. All those people...most of them elderly, but some young and just disabled...in extreme states of deterioration.
Contrast that to the Hunzas, who work hard, climbing mountains, living a robust and healthy life until they just pass quietly in their sleep at age 120.
I'm sorry to disagree again, Ali. But I don't think we have a very good quality of life here. Sure, we no longer have the problems associated with starvation and filth (in our country anyway, for the most part! It still exists elsewhere in the world), but we have other, equally serious 'quality of life' impediments...like children being autistic or getting cancer. How many children got cancer 200 years ago?
(12-08-2009, 06:50 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: Monica, do you want a real answer or continue to believe your chosen vaccination beliefs?
Really? You think that's what this is? Seriously, I'm stunned! I had no idea I was coming across in such a closed-minded way, blindly believing something I supposedly have a vested interest in.
If that's how I presented this info, then I sincerely apologize! That was not my intention!
My beliefs are based on having met real people whose children were affected by vaccines, as well as having read many books written by MDs who stated that the side effects from vaccines were vastly under-reported. The kicker was when I saw the CDC graph - yes, the actual CDC graph - showing that diseases had already declined before vaccines were introduced. (I confess I now feel disappointed that you didn't watch far enough into the video to get to that part. But I respect your choice so I'm letting go of that expectation.)
As I mentioned in my very first post, I once thought that anyone who didn't vaccinate their children was essentially guilty of child abuse!
Why did I do a 180?
This was not just an intellectual exercise to me. This was my child! Deciding whether or not to vaccinate him was the most agonizing decision of my parenting career!
Ali, my son is now 21. I no longer have any personal interest in this topic. (At least not until I have grandchildren, and then it won't be my decision anyway.)
I have rejected the entire premise of injecting poisons into the body to bring about health...this includes not only vaccines but other mainstream 'therapies' such as chemotherapy as well.
I simply have a different paradigm now, Ali. I respect that your paradigm is different from mine. It is not my intention to convince you or anyone else to believe as I do. I am simply offering some of the info that I found helpful in making my decision.
(12-08-2009, 06:50 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: Because I can go away and ignore this topic if you prefer.
?? Why would I prefer that?
Of course you are welcome to express your own opinions!(12-08-2009, 06:50 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: And I'm sensing we're on a collision course.
I sure hope not! I would like to think that we can politely and respectfully disagree! If you and I can't do that, what hope is there for the rest of the world?
(12-08-2009, 06:50 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: You're heavily invested in this topic,
What makes you think that?
(12-08-2009, 06:50 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: and I don't agree with you, also I'm a stubborn git. I'm not going to agree with you unless you come with really eye opening science that somehow makes all the other facts evaporate.
Well, if by 'science' you mean massive, double-blind studies, you won't find it...because those studies are extremely expensive and the only entity rich enough to fund them are the drug companies.
(12-08-2009, 06:50 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: The video you showed (or at least the first part of it) is so full of nonsense that I really can't get through the first part. I don't think I'll be able to watch all of it.
You and I sure arrived at different conclusions on that! A beautiful example of the lovely diversity in the UniVerse!
(12-08-2009, 06:50 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: If I missed anything you consider important or smoking gun material, specific please tell me the specific video and the time to check so I can check it.
It's been awhile since I watched it, and keep in mind this was just one of many, so I really don't remember the exact video and timestamp. There were a number of smoking guns, the most compelling being that distorted CDC graph (but I had already seen that years ago, in books). Sorry, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to watch it again in order to tell you the exact time.
Now maybe if I were more heavily invested in this topic, I might feel compelled to do so!
But, the truth is that I don't really care whether you agree with me or not. I have no agenda to convince you of anything!So, I simply offered the info that I found helpful. Apparently it doesn't resonate with you. That's cool! No problem! The info is there in case others find it useful.
(12-08-2009, 06:50 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: I get too angry watching the video, I don't like being lied to in this manner (combination of emotion with misinformation), and I don't have the time or desire to debunk it line by line.
That's so curious! That's how I often feel whenever I encounter mainstream AMA/FDA info!
(12-08-2009, 06:50 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: But it doesn't matter, it wasn't my only "source" as you assumed.
Ah, I think I see where the disconnect occurred. Ali, it sounds like I offended you when I said it was your only source. I apologize! I made that comment in response to your words, when you said, "I had only to look at pubmed..." which to me indicated that pubmed was your 'only' source. It was not my intention to offend you, so please accept my apology!
(12-08-2009, 06:50 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: Also FYI Pubmed is a collection database, it's not a "source" as you call it, it contains evidence for homeopathy, evidence for vaccines. Even evidence for bigfoot, telepathy, telekinesis and what not. It doesn't sound very selective to me.
Just because it includes articles about homeopathy etc. doesn't mean it isn't biased. There are a great many pro-homeopathy articles and studies which will never make it to pubmed. As an example, quackwatch.com includes articles on all sorts of alternative therapies...but their prime directive is attempt to debunk all of them.
(12-08-2009, 06:50 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: This anti vaccination stuff has been going mainstream for a little while now.
Have you ever wondered why? Have you ever wondered why these parents feel so passionate about it?
(12-08-2009, 06:50 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: I'm sorry but in spite of "popular" opinion vaccination DOES work.
Well, you are stating that as though it were an indisputable fact. You are certainly entitled to your opinion! I respect your opinion. I just happen to disagree with it.
PEACE!
(12-08-2009, 10:49 AM)3D Sunset Wrote: If you go down that rabbit hole you will find them embedded and integrated and nested so deeply that you will never come out. But worst of all, with each layer of the onion that you peel, you will become more and more mistrusting of your fellow man, your elected governments, and ultimately even yourself. This is, in my humble opinion, the true aim behind all conspiracy theories: To slowly erode away our faith in the good aspects of human nature.
Well said! I too realized this, after digging deeply into the rabbit hole for awhile.
(12-08-2009, 10:49 AM)3D Sunset Wrote: This is why I reject all conspiracy theories. Not because I know they are all false, but because the way to counteract the conspiracy's aim of fear of doom and mistrust is not by fighting it. It is by transcending it and responding with love and acceptance and caring.
Again, well said! I understand and respect your choice! I have made the same choice, but to a lesser degree. There are a few conspiracies I feel very strongly about as being true, that I see the value in exposing...so I continue to work on those causes. But we can't all do everything! We each take on the causes we feel drawn to be involved with. I have chosen to work in a different way than you in only a few areas...but overall I do agree with your stance. I feel exactly the same way whenever I hear someone saying we'll have martial law next month, be rounded up into concentration camps, or whatever. It's sad to see just how deeply entrenched in fear so many well-intentioned people are!
The handful of causes I do feel compelled to pursue, I do without fear. It's just work I have felt guided to do. I made a decision to not take action based on fear. That decision has helped me to gain some clarity about which issues to take on.
(12-08-2009, 10:49 AM)3D Sunset Wrote: Personally, I think this thread should be deleted, because I see it creating a wedge between some of our most prolific and respected members. This is a shame, and one which I wish was not allowed to happen.
This is sort of a trial run. The other mods and I have been discussing the pros and cons of starting a new sub-forum for just these types of discussions...current events, politics, etc. as viewed thru the lens of the Law of One. If we could work peacefully and respectfully on those issues, it would be very powerful indeed! But if we can't get past our disagreements with love and respect, then it would be counterproductive.
The fate of that new forum will be influenced by how this thread turns out. If this thread continues to decline, then yeah, we may lock it or delete it. We'll see what happens.
(12-08-2009, 10:49 AM)3D Sunset Wrote: At this time of holiday festivities and planning I would simply ask that we please, release all thoughts of negative conspiracies and redouble our efforts in our positive conspiracy of love, light, and acceptance.
That's a great idea!
Note: post edited
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - transiten - 12-08-2009
Dona Nobis Pacem
Transiten
Disagreeing is cool too! - Ali Quadir - 12-08-2009
Dear Monica, with "a real answer" I simply meant an answer that I support with my world view. I love and respect you a great deal. I do not wish to engage in conflict. I merely disagree. And you're right, it only takes a statement of intent to avoid problems.
You invite me to consider both our world views are correct. I admit my personality doesn't much allow me to support two conflicting very specific world views in my mind. Perhaps this is my failing I accept responsibility for it.
This is me... It's sad. I know...
However I do fully believe our broader views agree. In spite of our differences we do not believe that the human race will be murdered. We do not believe that these companies are run by good people. I think we agree that this is part of the human condition chosen by mankind and for mankind to choose to let go. Our disagreement can't be terribly important if we agree on much bigger issues.
So lets agree to disagree sometimes and we're probably going to encounter topics where after a few steps we discover we're not going to find agreement lets cheer and drop it, we'll still learn from those encounters and if we don't agree after a few exchanges of words we're not likely to ever do it on that particular subject. Which is okay of course. And we can still add our own understanding to the topic with the recognition that there's multiple ways to look at the same thing. Everyone has to make up their own mind in the end.
That's cool too right?
RE: Disagreeing is cool too! - Monica - 12-08-2009
Agreed!!!
Yeah we're cool.
Peace!
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - Peregrinus - 12-08-2009
At this point in time I'd like to agree that I disagree with this disagreeable agreement of disagreeing.
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - Monica - 12-08-2009
(12-08-2009, 11:28 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: At this point in time I'd like to agree that I disagree with this disagreeable agreement of disagreeing.
I agreeably disagree that agreeably agreeing to agreeably disagree is disagreeable!
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - Peregrinus - 12-09-2009
Tears in the eyes from laughter is a most wonderful thing
ty Monica
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - Monica - 12-09-2009
(12-09-2009, 01:05 AM)Peregrinus Wrote: Tears in the eyes from laughter is a most wonderful thing
Great!
yqw Now that we've gotten all that silly discord stuff settled into just regular silly stuff...I guess we're all in agreement that the very topic of vaccines is very controversial indeed, with lots of info out there on both sides of the debate, for those who might wish to investigate it!
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - transiten - 12-09-2009
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - ExperiencedGhost - 12-09-2009
I have just heard from my niece in France that she, her friend and her son has the flu H1N1 but none of them will take a vaccin. So my emails had a posive result. And just read on theflu.com that 90%of the parents refuse to give their consent for vaccination of their child.
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - ayadew - 12-09-2009
A friend of mine's mother is home sick because she took the vaccine. Oh the irony!
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - 3D Sunset - 12-09-2009
(12-08-2009, 02:21 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: This is sort of a trial run. The other mods and I have been discussing the pros and cons of starting a new sub-forum for just these types of discussions...current events, politics, etc. as viewed thru the lens of the Law of One. If we could work peacefully and respectfully on those issues, it would be very powerful indeed! But if we can't get past our disagreements with love and respect, then it would be counterproductive.
The fate of that new forum will be influenced by how this thread turns out. If this thread continues to decline, then yeah, we may lock it or delete it. We'll see what happens.
Hi Monica,
The real reason that I recommend removing the thread is due to it's remarkable lack of discussion of the issue "through the lens of the Law of One" as you suggest. As a matter of fact, I was not able to locate a single reference to the Law of One or any other Confederation material thus far in the thread. I actually agree that it might be beneficial to consider the issue with respect to the Law of One.
If the moderators intended to use this thread as a test case, I think they should have clearly stated as such, and identified ground rules for the discussion. Instead it seems to have become a simple venue for rehashing a number of conspiracy theories and pseudoscience that seem to me to better fit on other, less spiritual, websites.
Shall we try considering the topic through the Law of One?
Here's one of my favorite quotes from Ra regarding disease:
The Law of One, Book I, Session 23 Wrote:Questioner: I was really questioning about the more basic cause of disease rather than the mechanism of its transmission. I was going back to the root of thought that created the possibility of disease. Could you briefly tell me if I am correct in assuming the general reduction of thought over the long time on planet Earth with respect to the Law of One created a condition whereby what we call disease could develop? Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. This is correct and perceptive. You, as questioner, begin now to penetrate the outer teachings.
The root cause in this particular society was not so much a bellicose action although there were, shall we say, tendencies, but rather the formation of a money system and a very active trading and development of those tendencies towards greed and power; thus, the enslaving of entities by other entities and the misapprehension of the Creator within each entity.
Let us remember that diseases are very much a product of our own creation. By taking this personal responsibility for our lives and our actions, we can avoid the conspiracy all together. You see, if we are calling the virus into existence, then it really doesn't matter if the vehicle we use to create it is evolution or intentional action on the part of nefarious souls. Our response is the same: Take care of ourselves and learn the lessons that are presented to us. These lessons may include being sick and healing ourselves, our family members, our friends and even strangers. The lessons may also involve encouraging others, that believe that vaccination will help them, to get vaccinated. It may also include providing support to those that choose not to get vaccinated. It's all about service and supporting our fellow humans.
Personally, I reject the idea that a lesson to be learned is to bring attention to the fraud. In my opinion, doing so simply gives people another reason to play the part of victim and bemoan their fate in life because "other people are doing bad things to them". Perhaps the biggest issue that I have with conspiracy theories is that they reinforce the notion that people are not individually responsible for things that happen to them. If someone took a vaccine and later became ill, it seems much more productive to me to focus on how to get better by learning the lesson that the disease offers, rather than to worry about who is to "blame" for the illness (the same could be said of any "misfortune" that befalls an individual). Didn't thousands or even millions of other people take the vaccine and have no ill effect? The illness is clearly the responsibility of the individual. Looking for causes outside of the individual is a waste of time and energy, and so in my humble opinion, is looking for conspiracies that brought the disease and it's potentially harmful antidote into existence. If you want to find the culprit at the root of the conspiracy, then look no further than the nearest mirror.
Love and Light,
3D Sunset
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - transiten - 12-09-2009
3Dsunset
Do you think that perspective is appplicable to those getting cancer from nuclear powerplants like Czernobyl also?
transiten?
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - 3D Sunset - 12-09-2009
(12-09-2009, 12:10 PM)transiten Wrote: 3Dsunset
Do you think that perspective is appplicable to those getting cancer from nuclear powerplants like Czernobyl also?
transiten?
Most assuredly. I firmly believe that everything that happens, happens for a reason. Our task is to find the reason and learn the lesson. Blame is simply an excuse for not owning up to our responsibility to learn our lessons. If you think about it, this is also the most empowering perspective one can take in any given situation.
Love and Light,
3D Sunset
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - Aaron - 12-09-2009
I was vaccinated for H1N1 yesterday. Initially, I saw no reason to be vaccinated because I felt I was at very little risk to catch the disease or to suffer from it. I thought there was no reason to get the vaccination. However, I reconsidered, thinking, even if I were to get H1N1, it might not affect me much, but the elderly people I work with every day and others I come into contact with might be more susceptible. They were giving the shots free at work yesterday and I decided it couldn't hurt anything. I might as well build the immunity to prevent unknowingly spreading the disease.
The only side effect I felt was a spreading warmness 10-15 minutes afterwards as my body reacted to the invaders and gobbled em up. I felt more energy being used to eliminate the contents of the shot, but it wasn't enough to make me feel tired. There was no feeling of dizziness or sickness, and keep in mind that when I was 10, I nearly passed out from getting a shot. haha
Get the shot if it's necessary for you. Don't worry about others, and remember you have the free will to accept or reject.
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - transiten - 12-09-2009
3Dsunset
I was listening to a radioprogram about a strike in the mines in Sweden 40 years ago because of horrible working conditions, pple getting sick losing their hearing etc. Do you consider "striking" as blaming others/the company/tradeunion for the sickness they got? (Conditions ameliorated after that, the workers getting hughe support from all over ´Swede, media and even pple in the managment of the company)
transiten
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - 3D Sunset - 12-09-2009
(12-09-2009, 12:43 PM)transiten Wrote: 3Dsunset
I was listening to a radioprogram about a strike in the mines in Sweden 40 years ago because of horrible working conditions, pple getting sick losing their hearing etc. Do you consider "striking" as blaming others/the company/tradeunion for the sickness they got? (Conditions ameliorated after that, the workers getting hughe support from all over ´Swede, media and even pple in the managment of the company)
transiten
Hi transiten,
In my humble opinion, the strike was a reasonable reaction to take to correct the conditions, and was likely part of the lesson that needed to be learned through the catalyst of disease. By taking the action of choosing not to subject themselves to the negative conditions they were taking responsibility for their lives rather than continuing to assume the role of chattel that was "forced to work in unsafe conditions". The disease was the catalyst. Their actions were empowering and brought about better conditions.
The key is to look at situations in your life as part of your own doing, not to view yourself as a passive participant in life. I'm sure there were still some workers who developed chronic diseases and became bitter due to "what the management of the mine had done to them". These are the ones that still had a lesson to learn. Whenever I see people playing the blame game, I know they've missed the point that their higher self, through life, was trying to teach them.
3D Sunset
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - Ali Quadir - 12-09-2009
It's a little bit of both I guess. I really hear you 3d when you say that we have to understand that completely everything that comes unto our path is part of our self attracting it.
But if someone is doing us wrong, perhaps the part of us that is attracting it is that part that does not resist and tell them to sod off.. I don't think problems will go away if we try to pretend it's all in our mind. As an extreme opposite there is the socio path who is psychologically unable to consider that other people have minds and opinions. His inability to envision "conspiracies" of people around him is literally causing him problems.
It has to be something in the middle because what you're saying is certainly true.
RE: H1N1 vaccine is poison - Monica - 12-09-2009
(12-09-2009, 11:41 AM)3D Sunset Wrote: The real reason that I recommend removing the thread is due to it's remarkable lack of discussion of the issue "through the lens of the Law of One" as you suggest. As a matter of fact, I was not able to locate a single reference to the Law of One or any other Confederation material thus far in the thread.
Well, I do recall mentioning 2D critters...but other than that, yeah, you're right! That's rather disconcerting!
(12-09-2009, 11:41 AM)3D Sunset Wrote: If the moderators intended to use this thread as a test case, I think they should have clearly stated as such, and identified ground rules for the discussion.
My words were 'might be influenced by this thread' meaning that our observation of this thread might be one of many factors influencing how we set up the new sub-forum, word the guidelines, etc. I realize now that my words implied more than I intended! Please let me clarify:
No, we had no such intention. It wasn't an official test case or set-up or anything like that. The thread happened spontaneously. It happened to coincide with our discussions about a new sub-forum. Causal mention was made that this thread might be a good candidate for the new sub-forum. Another comment was made that the H1N1 discussion had gotten a little heated...and we wondered how the new sub-forum might work out. That's it. We were just sort of noticing how this thread was unfolding, that's all.
(12-09-2009, 11:41 AM)3D Sunset Wrote: Shall we try considering the topic through the Law of One?
Sure! Please do!
(12-09-2009, 11:41 AM)3D Sunset Wrote: Here's one of my favorite quotes from Ra regarding disease:
The Law of One, Book I, Session 23 Wrote:Questioner: I was really questioning about the more basic cause of disease rather than the mechanism of its transmission. I was going back to the root of thought that created the possibility of disease. Could you briefly tell me if I am correct in assuming the general reduction of thought over the long time on planet Earth with respect to the Law of One created a condition whereby what we call disease could develop? Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. This is correct and perceptive. You, as questioner, begin now to penetrate the outer teachings.
The root cause in this particular society was not so much a bellicose action although there were, shall we say, tendencies, but rather the formation of a money system and a very active trading and development of those tendencies towards greed and power; thus, the enslaving of entities by other entities and the misapprehension of the Creator within each entity.
Let us remember that diseases are very much a product of our own creation. By taking this personal responsibility for our lives and our actions, we can avoid the conspiracy all together. You see, if we are calling the virus into existence, then it really doesn't matter if the vehicle we use to create it is evolution or intentional action on the part of nefarious souls. Our response is the same: Take care of ourselves and learn the lessons that are presented to us. These lessons may include being sick and healing ourselves, our family members, our friends and even strangers. The lessons may also involve encouraging others, that believe that vaccination will help them, to get vaccinated. It may also include providing support to those that choose not to get vaccinated. It's all about service and supporting our fellow humans.
Well said! The only modification I would personally make is that, for those of us who consider vaccines toxic, encouraging someone to get vaccinated is like encouraging them to smoke cigarettes. I respect the free will of those who smoke cigarettes. But I won't encourage something that I believe to be harmful.
Case in point: I have a friend who is bed-ridden and living in a nursing home. She used to be into wholistic health, like me. So I knew she would want to know about the controversy about the swine flu vaccine.
Unfortunately, there isn't much she can do to take responsibility for her own health right now, because of her situation. If I recommended that she not get vaccinated, I would not be able to offer her any alternatives, because there's no way the nurses would let me give her vitamin D, herbs, etc. I can't stay at the nursing home and take care of her. She is on a lot of meds. In short, her healthcare is not my responsibility! Regardless of how she got into this situation, this is where she's at now!
I don't see the vaccine issue as black-and-white. I realize that, for someone in her situation, the choice is based on different criteria than for someone capable of pursuing alternative healing modalities.
Here's what I did: I asked her whether she was being required to get vaccinated. She said no, that they just offered her the vaccine but left the choice to her. She then volunteered the bit of info (which I already knew) that she generally preferred to avoid vaccines, but she might get it this time, since the swine flu was so dangerous and here she was stuck in a nursing home.
She had not been keeping up with the news! She had no access to the internet.
It would have been irresponsible for me to not tell her that there was controversy surrounding the vaccine. It would have been just as irresponsible for me to exaggerate the risks and influence her decision. She is clearly at more risk for flu complications than healthy people...meaning she is also more at risk for vaccine complications!
It's quite a dilemma, but it's her dilemma, not mine. My only responsibility was to to tell her that there is a controversy. She already knew about vaccines in general, and had make her choice to not get vaccinated, or at least only very sparingly, in years past. So, I simply told her that, so far, the swine flu had not been as serious as had been predicted...there had been a few deaths, to be sure, but not on a wide scale as they had thought would happen...although winter was young and it could still mutate and come back stronger later in the winter. I then told her that some doctors were claiming that the vaccine had not been adequately tested, and might possibly be more harmful than the flu itself.
That's it. I just informed her of the controversy. I remained neutral and basically admitted that it was a very grey area. I even told her that if she felt she should get the vaccination, she should go ahead and do it and not feel guilty or worry about it! (So yes, I did actually encourage her, if that was what she felt guided to do.) But, I didn't want her making her decision based on fear or misinformation...and certainly not on propaganda.
I'm her only connection to the outside world. She has no other friends that go to visit her. She has no phone. She gets only what the docs and nurses tell her. She trusts me. I could easily have abused that trust and inflated the dangers of the vaccine and gotten her scared to get vaccinated. But I didn't. I offered the info in a neutral way and left the decision up to her. She is dependent on the medical establishment now. She lives in a different world than I do.
(12-09-2009, 11:41 AM)3D Sunset Wrote: Personally, I reject the idea that a lesson to be learned is to bring attention to the fraud.
Perhaps there is no lesson for you there, which is why you aren't drawn to these issues. But others may indeed have lessons to be learned. Maybe they benefit by realizing that they can take responsibility for their own health instead of relying on a magic bullet, quick fix in a drug...maybe they might awaken a friend working in the drug industry or the media...there are always myriad ways to learn.
(12-09-2009, 11:41 AM)3D Sunset Wrote: In my opinion, doing so simply gives people another reason to play the part of victim and bemoan their fate in life because "other people are doing bad things to them".
True. This does happen. But it can also just as easily go the other way. I know plenty of people playing the victim, but I also know plenty of people who made a conscious choice to quit allowing others to control them (by choosing to not get vaccinated, or whatever) and felt empowered by that choice. It can go either way!
(12-09-2009, 11:41 AM)3D Sunset Wrote: Perhaps the biggest issue that I have with conspiracy theories is that they reinforce the notion that people are not individually responsible for things that happen to them.
I see your point. I see that as being true whether we believe in conspiracy theories or not. For someone not recognizing their personal responsibility and the power of their free will, what's the difference whether they abdicate that responsibility to the nasty power elite, their doctor, their priest, the mainstream media, or the beer companies telling them they'll get lots of girls if they buy that brand of beer?
(12-09-2009, 11:41 AM)3D Sunset Wrote: If someone took a vaccine and later became ill, it seems much more productive to me to focus on how to get better by learning the lesson that the disease offers, rather than to worry about who is to "blame" for the illness (the same could be said of any "misfortune" that befalls an individual). Didn't thousands or even millions of other people take the vaccine and have no ill effect? The illness is clearly the responsibility of the individual.
Ultimately, I agree with you that the illness is the responsibility of the individual.
However, let's try looking at this another way:
To use an analogy, let's look at cigarette smoking. At this point in time, there is a consensus that cigarette smoking is harmful. The data is undisputed that smoking cigarettes drastically increases the risk of a deadly disease, lung cancer.
But, it wasn't always so clear-cut. Back in the early days, there were pioneers who began to suspect a connection between smoking cigs and lung cancer.
Is it not service to others, to speak up about something that is harmful? Haven't many millions of people been helped by the knowledge that smoking is harmful? How many people would be smokers today if that knowledge had not become known?
If your teenage daughter announced her intentions to start smoking cigarettes, would you not warn her of the dangers of smoking? Wouldn't it be irresponsible to not tell her, to not share the info you have?
It is the same with vaccines! Just as the dangers of smoking were once disputed and controversial, so too are the dangers of vaccines now being disputed. It remains to be seen whether vaccines will one day be viewed as conclusively harmful like cigarettes, or maybe just a mixed bag of both positive and negative effects. But their time of being unquestioningly safe is over.
Perhaps eating meat would be a better analogy than smoking, since smoking has virtually no redeeming value, and eating meat is believed by many to have redeeming value. There is an overwhelmingly large body of evidence indicating that many of the most common and lethal diseases are affected by food components found in animal foods. Vegetarians have been shown to have a much lower risk for all the biggies: heart disease, cancer, stroke, diabetes, obesity, etc.
And yet, many argue that meat is an important food, offering nutrients that are useful to the human body. Still others argue that some animal foods in the diet is even necessary. It is a controversy, with good points on both sides of the argument.
When I look at the meat debate, it seems obvious to me that one side of the debate weighs considerably more than the other. And yet, I am in the minority. Perhaps one day eating meat will be viewed the way cigarette smoking is viewed now: People are allowed to do it, but there is a consensus that it's harmful to most who partake of it.
IF, and please note the word IF, it turns out that meat is one day viewed the same way cigarettes are viewed, then won't we be thanking those who were courageous enough to speak up when their views weren't popular? Those who had the forsight and tenacity to conduct the studies that produced the results?
How is this any different from the vaccine debate?
The only difference I see is that some of those who recognize that there might be harmful effects of vaccines have also attached a conspiracy theory to the equation. It's not necessary to do that, to make their point. Were the tobacco companies a conspiracy? Not necessarily! Did they have a vested interest in keeping the cigarette industry strong? Yes indeed! Did they not fight regulation? Did they not fight having to put warnings on their packages? Same with the meat and dairy industry! There is plenty of evidence for corruption in that industry as well! Greed tends to do that!
Just as the medical industry is fighting any opposing povs now! That the medical industry is hostile to alternative therapies and philosophies is indisputable! Just look at quackwatch.com...ridiculing anything that isn't drugs-and-surgery related...Just look at all the raids on health food stores...taking harmless herbs off the market, while they continue to market their drugs which kill 200,000 people every year.
I don't think it's necessary to believe in plots ot kill off the population, in order to recognize that the safety and efficacy of vaccines is questionable. Simple greed is sufficient to explain it.
I agree that, once any sort of misfortune strikes, taking responsibility is preferable to blaming others. I also agree that a lot of the focus among conspiracy theorists is on the blame and the fear. But, let's not throw the baby out with the bath water! Many, if not most, of these activists also care a great deal about helping others! They are doing what they believe is right, not just to blame someone after damage has occurred, but to help others prevent getting harmed. It is this prevention element that I think is lacking in your assessment. Is it not STO to offer info to others that might help them avoid harm? (As long as we just offer it and leave the final decision up to them.)
I completely agree with the gist of what you're saying...that we do need to take responsibility for whatever befalls us. At the same time, are we not here to serve others? How can we knowingly withhold info about something we know or suspect to be harmful? Provided the person has indicated they are interested in that info, of course. I don't walk up to people in the grocery store and tell them to quit smoking or not get vaccinated! But, if asked, I will share what I know...and leave the decision up to them.
(12-09-2009, 12:19 PM)3D Sunset Wrote:(12-09-2009, 12:10 PM)transiten Wrote: 3Dsunset
Do you think that perspective is appplicable to those getting cancer from nuclear powerplants like Czernobyl also?
Most assuredly. I firmly believe that everything that happens, happens for a reason. Our task is to find the reason and learn the lesson. Blame is simply an excuse for not owning up to our responsibility to learn our lessons. If you think about it, this is also the most empowering perspective one can take in any given situation.
But wouldn't you also work to prevent future nuclear accidents, if it was within your power to do so?
(12-09-2009, 12:24 PM)Aaron Wrote: I was vaccinated for H1N1 yesterday.
Thank you for sharing your experience and your line of reasoning, Aaron!